Thibaut Pinot's training data

[Arnout]

The clinic loves to complain that no-one ever releases training data. A paper containing the training data of Thibaut Pinot from age 18-23 was published last week. It's a crucial development phase for a top talent so this data is highly valuable as it allows a longer-term numbers progression of a climber.

Since it's a scientific publication, it is not for free by default, but anyone with access to a university VPN or a (university) library should be able to download it for free. For others, it's 30 pounds or thereabout.

I don't have time and knowledge to really delve into this so I thought I'd share it, maybe some interesting discussion and knowledge emerges from this.

As threadstarter I also ask everyone not to derail this thread, keep it about the training data of Pinot please.

The paper can be found here: http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02640414.2014.969296#.VFvOKp-ClZe

Edit: To emphasize, both race and training data from age 18-23 is included in this publication.

 

[grizzlee]

HMMMMMMMMM, No replys to this. After all the crying on here for Data and the first time a rider really puts out a serious amount and it all goes quiet. No comments about "well done" or anything.

Come on guys where are all you doubters?

Im looking at you Benotti, you pretty much always have something negative to say.

Lets hear ya.

 

[Benotti69]

HMMMMMMMMM, No replys to this. After all the crying on here for Data and the first time a rider really puts out a serious amount and it all goes quiet. No comments about "well done" or anything.

Come on guys where are all you doubters?

Im looking at you Benotti, you pretty much always have something negative to say.

Lets hear ya.

Why don't you analyse it and give your opinion?

Show me something positive to comment on about pro cycling?

Now if Pinaut started doping at aged 16 what would we see that points to doping? It is the spikes and troughs that indicate doping, but not always as the ABP has a huge margin that you could drive a whole professional peloton through it.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why don't you analyse it and give your opinion?

Show me something positive to comment on about pro cycling?

Now if Pinaut started doping at aged 16 what would we see that points to doping? It is the spikes and troughs that indicate doping, but not always as the ABP has a huge margin that you could drive a whole professional peloton through it.

So go ask Ross Tucker, ammattipyöräily or even dodgy scientist ACoggan to look at it if you are not prepared to do it and declare Pinaut the clean winner of the TdF!

And if the 'experts' come back and say it reflects what would be expected of a clean rider then how would that affect your opinion of doping in cycling?

 

[Benotti69]

And if the 'experts' come back and say it reflects what would be expected of a clean rider then how would that affect your opinion of doping in cycling?

Good to see my opinion is so valued in this little echo chamber

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Good to see my opinion is so valued in this little echo chamber

Someone is avoiding the question

 

[The Hitch]

And if the 'experts' come back and say it reflects what would be expected of a clean rider then how would that affect your opinion of doping in cycling?

What "experts"?

And what does "what would be expected of a clean rider" mean?

 

[Benotti69]

Someone is avoiding the question

Do i think Pinot beat the likes of Valverde, Teejay and others clean?

No i dont.

Why? because the testing is a joke. The French are as clean as the Brits, Yanks, Spanish, Italians, Kazaks, Belgians etc etc......

This data doesn't include 2014

 

[Nick C.]

So as understand this thread the responses are: "I don't understand this go ask an expert." So why on earth does anyone bother opening their mouth other than because this is the internet.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

What "experts"?

And what does "what would be expected of a clean rider" mean?

"Experts" I use as an encompassing term for people who are quoted on here when analysing power data, profiles, etc...

And what does "what would be expected of a clean rider" mean?

If the data in the training data lines up with what could realistically be expected from a clean cyclist in terms of progression and power over the course of that timeframe.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Do i think Pinot beat the likes of Valverde, Teejay and others clean?

No i dont.

That was not the question. I am not asking if you think he is clean or not.

We have a rider that has released his training data. Now, I have no idea what exactly he has released and what it shows.. but if it were to tick all the boxes of someone with a clean profile, and given you have been one of the people to ask why cyclists don't release information, how would that affect you opinion of doping in cycling?

 

[Benotti69]

That was not the question. I am not asking if you think he is clean or not.

Do i think Pinot beat the likes of Valverde, Teejay and others clean?

No i dont. and i dont think the data includes his most important podium so that makes it kind of redundant and it is only training data and not racing data so not complete.

Why? because the testing is a joke. The French are as clean as the Brits, Yanks, Spanish, Italians, Kazaks, Belgians etc etc......

This data doesn't include 2014

We have a rider that has released his training data. Now, I have no idea what exactly he has released and what it shows.. but if it were to tick all the boxes of someone with a clean profile, and given you have been one of the people to ask why cyclists don't release information, how would that affect you opinion of doping in cycling?

so you have no idea? Yet you want me to comment when i am not a sports scientist?

 

[grizzlee]

so you have no idea? Yet you want me to comment when i am not a sports scientist?

Well done on your trolling!

OK so you are not a sports scientist and therefore acording to your own words not able to comment on it. Thats fair enough.

But you are well able to comment on other riders performances and with absolutely no information perfectly capable of saying they are dopeing.

GLAD WE HAVE FINALLY SORTED THAT ONE OUT

Thanks for finally letting us all know how you think.

TROLL

 

[The Hitch]

If the data in the training data lines up with what could realistically be expected from a clean cyclist in terms of progression and power over the course of that timeframe.

Well to answer your original question, if an expert said that it really wouldn't be that big a deal, and certainly not grounds for someone like Benotti to change his opinion.

All the expert is saying here is that it is possible for the performance to be clean. It is also however possible for the performance to be dirty.

The term "what would be expected of a clean rider" and similar terms that have been used in the media, is a bit misleading as it implies the data leans to the conclusion of cleanliness, when it does not.

A more accurate way to put it would be "data that could have come from a clean rider, but could also have come from a doped one".

Because afterall plenty of people who's performances easily fell into the- looks clean catergory were dopers, eg Frei.

Secondly lets remember that the "experts" don't neccesarily have the best track record on this. Remember Grappe said Armstrong was clean based on his data.

 

[grizzlee]

So basically all the crying in here for JV to release the data of his riders would acomplish absolutely nothing.

Pinot does it and all the usual suspects either say they suddenly cant comment on it because they are not qualified or the data would be impossible to tell if the rider was clean or not.

Please correct me if im wrong here this is a genuine post (not trolling)

But it sounds like it would be a complete waste of time for someone like JV to release this data. People already have their own minds made up. Thats fair enough but dont ram your own point down other peoples throats and then plead ignorance when it come to reading data.

 

[Bumeington]

Some highlights for those that like numbers.

Study dates between 2008-2013 (age 18-23), uses all training and racing power data minus 5% thrown out because of errors (e.g. power meter stops working, electrical interference from tv motos etc.).

Conclusion: Power outputs over all duration increase and this correlates with an increase in training load (more duration and more frequent intensity).

Numbers:

Weight (for target races) 2008 = 62kg
Weight (for target races) 2012-13 = 65kg
VO2 max = 85ml/min/kg
Total distance 2008 = 14733 km
Total distance 2013 = 29383 km

2008 powers: 5 mins 6.4W/kg, 10min 6.0 W/kg, 20min 5.7W/kg, 30 min 5.4W/kg, 60 min 5.0W/kg

2012-13 powers (picked best each year but not much change): 5 mins 7.4 W/kg, 10 min 6.9W/kg, 20 min 6.5 W/kg, 30 min 6.1 W/kg, 60 min 5.7 W/kg

Edit: Since we're in the clinic here is my 2 cents. 2000s style doping seems unlikely given the correlation between training load and power, no sudden improvements, he improves steadily year on year until 2013 when there's not much improvement over 2012. Micro-dosing etc. can't be ruled out, maybe Pinot needs it to achieve his current training load and recover properly. I'd go for clean as I'm not too cynical and I like his credibility with transparency like this.

 

[Benotti69]

OK so you are not a sports scientist and therefore acording to your own words not able to comment on it. Thats fair enough.

But you are well able to comment on other riders performances and with absolutely no information perfectly capable of saying they are dopeing.

GLAD WE HAVE FINALLY SORTED THAT ONE OUT

Thanks for finally letting us all know how you think.

Ball not man.

I never claimed to post anything other than my opinion. It is a forum.

I look for change in the sport that would allow a 'clean' rider to achieve results because it is hard to for the others to dope, but i have not seen anything that has made it difficult to dope!

 

[Afrank]

People, please try to debate calmly without resorting to calling each other trolls.

 

[hrotha]

Good of Pinot to release it, but I doubt we have enough data to reach any conclusions. That's why we need many more riders to do the same.

 

[Dr. Juice]

Trust me - I know it. Pinot is clean.

 

[The Hitch]

So basically all the crying in here for JV to release the data of his riders would acomplish absolutely nothing.

Pinot does it and all the usual suspects either say they suddenly cant comment on it because they are not qualified or the data would be impossible to tell if the rider was clean or not.

Please correct me if im wrong here this is a genuine post (not trolling)

But it sounds like it would be a complete waste of time for someone like JV to release this data. People already have their own minds made up. Thats fair enough but dont ram your own point down other peoples throats and then plead ignorance when it come to reading data.

Perhaps you could point me to where I "cried for JV to release data" where I said Pinot dopes, where you think I made up my mind about Pinot.

Otherwise you are indeed trolling, or being ignorant. I have never said anything about whether I think Pinot dopes. But some people live in some binary world where if you don't say 1 thing then they think they can read your entire mind.

The question was asked what if an expert said that Pinot's data could be clean. It is a hypothetical (ie not real) question to begin with and in any case all I did was give the correct answer - that it woulnd't mean much since it wouldn't close off the possibility of doping.
In any case, the whole thing was theoretical.

What was I supposed to say - oh yes that would prove the rider is clean? No it would not - see Armstrong and Grappe, or see Frei and his pathetic performances.

But of course for making that point someone is going to throw a bunch of words into my mouth.

Ironically a similar thing happened sometime before when someone offered the ridiculous notion that all French riders are clean and all young riders are clean,in a deabate about Pinot and other young French riders.

For pointing out that those 2 claims are a bunch of easily disproved horse****, I got accused of saying Pinot dopes and asked to provide evidence.

Pointing out the flaws in an argument =/ arguing 100% the opposite

 

[the sceptic]

Good of Pinot to release it, but I doubt we have enough data to reach any conclusions. That's why we need many more riders to do the same.

Even if we have all the data and the independent experts say he is clean and his progression is normal, its impossible to be 100% sure right?

But this is obviously a good move by him and it gives him more credibility. Ideally, more riders would do this so the mega dopers would stand out even more.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Good of Pinot to release it, but I doubt we have enough data to reach any conclusions. That's why we need many more riders to do the same.

Thats a good summary of my view.
Plus as its behind a paywall I can't see the full paper to really make any judgements.

 

[acoggan]

dodgy scientist ACoggan

Go **** yourself.

 

[acoggan]

its behind a paywall

Which if you think about it, is amusingly ironic.