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Thoughts on classification winners in grand tours

Do the classification jerseys outside of leader’s jersey have any meaning anymore? Should they be about anything other than allowing the same couple guys to double up on awards?

I haven’t followed the sport closely as long as many on here but I remember there was always a big fight for KOM and Points when I was younger and Young Rider was also special, even if they weren’t the absolute crème de la crème.

According to PCS, 26 is the highest scoring age of all which is supposed to be the cutoff for best young rider, an award theoretically meant for up and coming riders still quite a way off the best. And we all know who has won that the last handful of years, and now potentially Remco, and that’s not likely to change any time soon.

It essentially looks like this:

Points jersey - best sprinter in the tour

Leader jersey - best rider in the tour
KOM Jersey - best rider in the tour
Young Rider jersey - best rider in the tour (until Pogacar ages out, then 3rd or 4th best)

I don’t see anything wrong with honoring the best riders in each respective discipline even if that means the same few guys winning everything. But at the same time, making it an open battle that can be contested by more than just the same couple guys could add a lot to the tours, and a lot of the draw of Grand Tours is knowing there’s so many plot lines to follow.

Thoughts?
 
I thinl the Green Jersey works well enough, you get one extra sprint per day between the sprinters and the real sprinters are going for it. Seems after the Sagan/Hushovd reforms that the purer sprinters are going for it more.

I loved Ciccone winning the polka dots, especially how hard he and the team fought for it. But when pogi or Jonas are going for it every hilly stage it’s hard for break aways. I do think it would be better if it was contested a little more from break away riders; because gc riders don’t care until they get another podium in Paris.
 
I've always disliked the white jersey. To me it doesn't make sense to have a competition based on criteria you can't do anything about. You might as well have a jersey for the best old rider, the best tall rider or the best rider wearing glasses.
I think it used to make sense when young riders weren’t so good. It was an indication of possible talents. Now that the young riders are also fighting for yellow it makes less sense.
 
If I'm pogi I am trying to figure out how to win that green jersey too

Not that hard, he just needs to ride the Vuelta one year and hope no sprinter dominates the 4/5 flat stages. Roglič managed to win it after all.

As for the other jerseys, I don't think a lot can be done with KOM unless they want to make it more of a breakaway jersey, as long as the GC riders go for stage wins in almost all mountain stages it will always be difficult for someone else to win it, though it can be done if a good enough climber goes for it like Ciccone last year.

Regarding the young riders jersey, I think it should be only for under23 riders.
 
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I think it used to make sense when young riders weren’t so good. It was an indication of possible talents. Now that the young riders are also fighting for yellow it makes less sense.
Yeah sure, but an old riders classification would be an indicator of possible good veterans. Just joking. Partly. I still don't think that competition makes any sense even though I know why it's there.
 
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I've always disliked the white jersey. To me it doesn't make sense to have a competition based on criteria you can't do anything about. You might as well have a jersey for the best old rider, the best tall rider or the best rider wearing glasses.
Fully agreed. I'd rather have an activity jersey with the combined points of the intermediate sprints and mountain points from non-MTF climbs. Perhaps tweaked so that the IS isn't worth the same as a HC climb.
 
IMO the value of the white jersey was mainly to give teams a reason to let talented younger riders ride for themselves in an era where it was often hard for them to get the leadership opportunities they deserved. That way of thinking has disappeared from the sport, and contrary to the young supergeneration we are looking at right now it is likely to be a permanent change, and hence I think the argument to scrap the white jersey altogether makes more sense than to bring down the age limit.

An activity jersey or a true Intergiro would be nice prizes for smaller teams, but in effect it's really just giving them an additional scrap to fight for while the happy few continue to dominate. IMO, much better to crack down on disparities in both budget and nutrition/training methods (ahem) between teams than to address minor classifications.

Finally, the best way to help the KOM jersey is to shift a bit of the GC focus from the big climbs to the cobbles/gravel/hills/mid-mountains. Makes the GC much more of a test who's the best overall rider rather than being 80% about pure climbing like it is now, thereby freeing up the purer climbers to target the KOM once more.
 
The green jersey I've never really attached that much value to, especially since the move to even further sprint-weight it; we can always know who the best sprinter is at the Tour, they're the one winning the most stages. The other thing was that for several years it was so comfortable for Sagan because he could get to intermediate sprints no other sprinter could that for several years he'd take the jersey on stage 2 or 3 and nobody would even really bother trying to take it off him, so for years there's been very little competition for it, and the one year that there was, Sagan fell foul of the only time the commissaires policed the offence and not the outcome and got relegated for an irregular sprint when there wasn't a crash, causing a lot of complaints from fans because the competition for the jersey had been ruined. The GPM was massively devalued thanks to the success of the Virenque method and some godawful course designs in the late 2000s that meant that the rules at the time skewed the competition. Back then points were doubled on an HC, cat.1 or cat.2 if it was the last climb of the day (regardless of where in the stage it was), and there were no bonus seconds at all. This was largely as it was the péloton à deux vitesses era and so allowing breaks to take most of the main stages kept the French riders involved, people like Casar, Fédrigo, Dessel, Riblon, Moncoutié and Moreau being key protagonists in these stages. But it also meant that if you threw out a stage like 2009's execrable Tarbes stage or 2010's Pau stage, with the final mountain over 60km from the line, no GC rider would ever take action in those stages, but the mountains gave out stupidly high numbers of points, meaning that the GC riders never really bothered considering the GPM and you ended up with riders in totally irrelevant GC spots winning the prize which was not how it was intended.

Since the reconstruction of the classification in 2011, this seemed to work OK for a while, but the heavy exaggeration of the points for the MTFs meant that on occasion a GC rider could win the GPM almost by accident, as Froome did on one occasion. Things like Majka's wins in the classification, and Quintana in 2013, seem to be what they were aiming for, but as time has gone on and the course has had fewer TT miles (meaning the specialist climbers have little reason not to think of themselves as GC men), stage designs have become more backloaded and we have fewer multi-col stages with true HC and cat.1 climbs mid-stage (plus the over-categorisation of a fair few last climb of the day ascents) has meant that it's far too easy for GC men to win the GPM without even trying to - in recent years we've had people like Wout Poels, Michael Woods and even Richard Carapaz - great climbers one and all, and people who would seem perfectly appropriate KOMs - working to collect points for a whole race, getting in breaks and sprinting out summits the way we expect to see GPMs fought out, only to see a couple of days of breakaway effort wiped out in an instant by Tadej Pogačar winning an MTF which is worth as much as every other climb in two days put together. This year they've attempted to rectify this, but the way they've chosen is to overcategorise summits the break will take, and undercategorise MTFs instead.

Maybe it's time to just get rid of the double points for the finish, since GC men are contesting each summit now? Or maybe it's time to reinstate double points for the last climb even on descent finishes. For the moment, it's too easy for the GC guys to win it without trying to, and nobody in the break thinks they can win the title so they don't really contest the points either, so you're left with somebody getting into the jersey early in the race in a random break and holding it almost uncontested like it's a metas volantes jersey in the Tour of Britain or something until the GC guys take it, like Cosnefroy in 2020 or Abrahamsen this year.

The other thing of course is that wildcard teams have been all but wiped out. It's massively hurt the spectacle of flat stages, because we're increasingly seeing no break at all, because with their invites at all the top races guaranteed, none of the sponsors even need the airtime. A few days in a classification lead was really important to teams like Agritubel, Saur and their likes and they would enliven those stages to battle for those points and that airtime in a way that really isn't possible when the "wildcards" are a team like Israel-PremierTech who know they're going to all 3 GTs and all 5 monuments if they want, because despite being a "wildcard" the organisers are forced to invite them.

So, to sum it up, the value of the 'king of the breakaways' has been ruined by Premier League Cycling meaning that there are no teams whose primary interest is breakaways anymore, the points system was a reaction to circumstances in cycling fifteen years ago that is probably due an overhaul due to the change in circumstances in cycling since, and the kind of people who ought to target the GPM simply don't because it's too hard to win without being a GC man - but as long as the GC mix is reduced to such a small number of competitors, without incentives and means by which to win the secondary classifications, it reduces a large percentage of the péloton to irrelevances. UCI, ASO and their like need to find a way to make the GPM relevant again, so that riders outside of the two or three over-powered super teams think it worthwhile to contest it. Maybe give some major UCI points for it and tilt the points balance away from the GC, so that the teams whose WT spot is in jeopardy want to slug it out, maybe get rid of bonus seconds at the line again so more breaks are allowed to settle stages, maybe more multi-col stages, maybe not such a stingy amount of points for cat 2/3/4 climbs to mean that they aren't rendered irrelevant by a single cat.1 or HC climb, maybe even just more TT mileage so one-dimensional climbers are forced to make more of a deal of the classification. But they do need to do something for the competition to regain some level of relevance.
 
The white jersey should stay. For Evenepoel it means a lot to be the best young rider in the Tour. Pogacar's four consecutive wins were an exceptional case that will probably never be repeated. If the barrier were lowered by two years the young riders' classification would look like this:

  1. Carlos Rodriguez
  2. Romain Grégoire 1h43:51
There's no way they'll do that. The winner could come from outside the top 30.

In some years the white jersey is won by the Tour winner himself: Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck, Bernal, Pogacar.

In other years it's won by a future Tour winner: LeMond, Pantani, Ullrich '96, Schleck '08 and '09.

In other years it's won by someone who'll never win it: Moser, Winnen, Hampsten, Pinot, Quintana...

In some years it's won by someone who's soon forgotten: Eddy Bouwmans, Benoit Salmon, Vladimir Karpets, Pierre Latour...

It's interesting to see how this will evolve in the future. A combination jersey is meaningless, because that one always went to the first or second in the GC.
 
In some years the white jersey is won by the Tour winner himself: Fignon, Ullrich, Contador, Schleck, Bernal, Pogacar.

In other years it's won by a future Tour winner: LeMond, Pantani, Ullrich '96, Schleck '08 and '09.

I suppose that you could argue that in 2010, it was also won by a future Tour winner - Schleck - it's just that the "future" Tour in question was the 2010 Tour, that he won... in 2012.

But now I'm wondering; when was the last time we had an actual battle for white in the Tour? We had one this year in the Giro.
In 2021, sure, Pogacar and Vingegaard were battling it out - with Pogacar having the clear advantage - but they were battling for yellow, it just so happened that they were both young enough to also be in the BYR competition.
A similar - and much closer - situation played out between Geoghegan Hart and Hindley in the 2020 Giro.
 
Maybe it's time to just get rid of the double points for the finish, since GC men are contesting each summit now? Or maybe it's time to reinstate double points for the last climb even on descent finishes. For the moment, it's too easy for the GC guys to win it without trying to, and nobody in the break thinks they can win the title so they don't really contest the points either, so you're left with somebody getting into the jersey early in the race in a random break and holding it almost uncontested like it's a metas volantes jersey in the Tour of Britain or something until the GC guys take it, like Cosnefroy in 2020 or Abrahamsen this year.
There's currently no double points for the finish. The only climb with double points this year is the highest point of the Tour, the Cime de la Bonnette. I think the mountains classification would already be a lot better if you got 15 instead of 20 points for a HC climb.

And teams don't always seem to properly target it, with a proper team strategy. For instance, it seems that for EF both Carapaz and Healy have been eyeing the polkadots, as they have both scored quite a few points already. It's still technically possible that either of them can win mountains classification, but it is not very likely.
 
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The significance of KOM jersey historically changes with ITT/mountain balance.
For example, in the Hinault/Lemond/Indurain years the best climbers could compete with/beat GC riders.
Recent tilt towards much less ITT and more mountains logically makes KOM=GC.

And nobody wants the "cringe KOM" - king of the mountains being 15th best climber in the race.
So artificially engineering the points to be unreachable to the best climbers is absurd.
Make the "best breakaway" category then.
 
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Maybe it's time to just get rid of the double points for the finish, since GC men are contesting each summit now? Or maybe it's time to reinstate double points for the last climb even on descent finishes. For the moment, it's too easy for the GC guys to win it without trying to, and nobody in the break thinks they can win the title so they don't really contest the points either, so you're left with somebody getting into the jersey early in the race in a random break and holding it almost uncontested like it's a metas volantes jersey in the Tour of Britain or something until the GC guys take it, like Cosnefroy in 2020 or Abrahamsen this year.
I think you're right with getting rid of the double points for the final finish - I do think that trying to weight the KOM away from GC riders needs to be taken a little further though. Something like giving double points on the next climb to the winner of a KOM point (ie. you get in the break and are first over the first climb of the day, then on the second climb you win double points) would make it a genuine competition for breakaway guys, and gives a little more meaning for the little opening climbs of the day.
 
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I think it was a bit of overreaction of putting just one point available in 4th category climbs, as well as two for 3rd.

The top points were quite good earlier (I think it was 20 for HC, 15 for 1st, 10 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, and 3 for 4th, but the highest three had an odd system where everyone who got points got at least five of them. I think the last point scorer should always get one point.

Something like this.
4th 3-2-1
3rd 5-3-2-1
2nd 10-7-5-3-2-1
1st 15-12-10-8-6-4-2-1
HC 20-15-12-10-8-6-4-3-2-1
 
It is my understanding, that the origin of the green jersey was simply a points jersey and not a sprint jersey. In other words, an alternative to the yellow jersey. The best rider, based on a points system, just like that is the case in Formula1. Over the decades, however, roads got better, bikes got better, teams got more organised and one-trick ponies started to dominate those stages. And worst of all, organisers started catering towards those one-trick ponies. Now everybody thinks (the organisers as well) that it is the best sprinter's jersey.

Polka dot jersey should be completely revised. Scratch that stupid points based system. Just count climbing times. Doesn't matter whether somebody is all the way in the break, or dropped and riding 10 minutes behind the peloton. When you ride the fastest climb, you were the best climber on that climb. No asinine system where a 90 kilo gorilla gets a 10 minute gap on a flat run up and climbs slowest of the entire peloton, but reaches the top first.

White jersey should stay. Yes, they start training professionally at a much younger age, get the best equipment etc, but they still lack experience, and only the real aliens start winning both white and yellow. The next years i'm looking forward to battles for white between Uijtdebroeks, Ayuso, Martinez, etc. Just lower the age 1 or 2 years.

People jokingly proposed a best old rider jersey, i think this should also become a thing. Maybe not a jersey, but perhaps something like the combativité award.
 
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