Tim Wellens

[proffate]

couldn't find a thread. When did this guy transition into a climber? I missed that coming-out party.

Wellens has gotten recent headlines for bashing Froome's presence given the salbutamol positive. Not sure this makes him come off as clean in my eyes though. Who has the most to lose from Froome bringing attention to the doping still present in the sport? Dopers...

A month back, Tim posted this on facebook.

What 10 minute power counts as an admission of doping? Because 6.94 seems on the high side.

 

[thehog]

couldn't find a thread. When did this guy transition into a climber? I missed that coming-out party.

Wellens has gotten recent headlines for bashing Froome's presence given the salbutamol positive. Not sure this makes him come off as clean in my eyes though. Who has the most to lose from Froome bringing attention to the doping still present in the sport? Dopers...

A month back, Tim posted this on facebook.

What 10 minute power counts as an admission of doping? Because 6.94 seems on the high side.

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

 

[Merckx index]

That near plateau from 1m to 10m strikes me as odd, usually there's a considerable drop off in that time range. The 5s, 1m and 30-60m times are consistent with a roleur or all-rounder, while his power at 5-10 minutes seems way too high. But maybe not all those points resulted from maximum effort.

Anyway, he's listed at 65 kg, so sustained efforts are < 5 w/kg, not going to win any MTF with that.

 

[ClassicomanoLuigi]

I also am not sure exactly what Wellens is demonstrating in the graph, but it looks like he went riding for an hour...or spinning in the gym for an hour, during which time, he did one interval to test his max 10-minute output, and maybe one sprint interval. He states his weight at 70 kilograms in his message, giving about 6.9W/kg for his all-out best 10-minute effort. So as MerckxIndex said, it looks like an all-rounder with very high wattage in the medium-duration power profile, but who is neither a climber nor a sprinter nor a TT specialist
(Compared to world-level pros such as Cancellara at ~450W for 60 minutes, or on the other end of the spectrum, Greipel at ~1800W for 5 seconds)

 

[brownbobby]

Re:

I also am not sure exactly what Wellens is demonstrating in the graph, but it looks like he went riding for an hour...or spinning in the gym for an hour, during which time, he did one interval to test his max 10-minute output, and maybe one sprint interval. He states his weight at 70 kilograms in his message, giving about 6.9W/kg for his all-out best 10-minute effort. So as MerckxIndex said, it looks like an all-rounder with very high wattage in the medium-duration power profile, but who is neither a climber nor a sprinter nor a TT specialist
(Compared to world-level pros such as Cancellara at ~450W for 60 minutes, or on the other end of the spectrum, Greipel at ~1800W for 5 seconds)

Indeed....Indeed.

Then over on the Froome thread we have pages and pages of debate and counterdebate over a 1000w max power acceleration for a few seconds.

Comically, ridiculous, beyond credibility. Had to be motorised.

Apparently

 

[pastronef]

Wellens moved to Monaco 2 years ago. he must be doping

 

[proffate]

That near plateau from 1m to 10m strikes me as odd, usually there's a considerable drop off in that time range. The 5s, 1m and 30-60m times are consistent with a roleur or all-rounder, while his power at 5-10 minutes seems way too high. But maybe not all those points resulted from maximum effort.

Anyway, he's listed at 65 kg, so sustained efforts are < 5 w/kg, not going to win any MTF with that.

Based on the caption, that is clearly a graph of a single ride where he tested his 10 minute power, and he is 70kg.

(I don't think anyone's power drops off that quickly between 10 and 20 minutes.)

 

[proffate]

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

I did. Did you see it? The next three riders were Landa, Fuglsang and Poels, so clearly not a finish for climbers

 

[Escarabajo]

Wellens moved to Monaco 2 years ago. he must be doping

That's probably more proof of doping than what the OP is showing above!

 

[Merckx index]

Based on the caption, that is clearly a graph of a single ride where he tested his 10 minute power, and he is 70kg.

All right, I can't read the small print.

(I don't think anyone's power drops off that quickly between 10 and 20 minutes.)

Pinot's certainly didn't. Here's a comparison (Pinot/Wellens, W/kg):

5 s 18.1/17.4
30s 13.0/8.3
1m 10.5/7.6
5m 7.2/7.1
10m 6.9/7.0
20m 6.4/4.7
30m 6.1/4.0

http://sci-hub.la/10.1080/02640414.2014.969296

They're about the same at 5s. At every point after that, Wellens is much lower, except 5m and 10m.If he was riding specifically to maximize his 10m output, then it does suggest that at longer times he might have power/weight close to Pinot's.

But this begs the question: if the purpose of the exercise was to determine his maximum power at ten minutes, why did he bother to record values at longer times? If those weren't maximum outputs, why nclude them on the same graph?

 

[simoni]

Based on the caption, that is clearly a graph of a single ride where he tested his 10 minute power, and he is 70kg.

All right, I can't read the small print.

(I don't think anyone's power drops off that quickly between 10 and 20 minutes.)

Pinot's certainly didn't. Here's a comparison (Pinot/Wellens, W/kg):

5 s 18.1/17.4
30s 13.0/8.3
1m 10.5/7.6
5m 7.2/7.1
10m 6.9/7.0
20m 6.4/4.7
30m 6.1/4.0

http://sci-hub.la/10.1080/02640414.2014.969296

They're about the same at 5s. At every point after that, Wellens is much lower, except 5m and 10m.If he was riding specifically to maximize his 10m output, then it does suggest that at longer times he might have power/weight close to Pinot's.

But this begs the question: if the purpose of the exercise was to determine his maximum power at ten minutes, why did he bother to record values at longer times? If those weren't maximum outputs, why nclude them on the same graph?

I'd guess its a graph of the full session including warm-up/down. The higher powers at 1 min and less probably the result of a few warm-up spinouts etc.

 

[Jagartrott]

To topic starter: Wellens is not a pure climber (and the graph you posted also shows that), but he was never a slug up a mountain. I seem to remember him finishing top-10 in a mountain TT in the Giro (his first GT I think), and he has wins on medium mountain/hilly terrain (like in the Giro, Ardennes), so I would not call this win in the Ruta del Sol on similarly bumpy terrain very surprising or suspicious. When he starts winning stages with 3 HC climbs, yes, then there's a strange transition in there somewhere.

 

[therhodeo]

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

I did. Did you see it? The next three riders were Landa, Fuglsang and Poels, so clearly not a finish for climbers

Are we shocked that a guy who focuses on the classics is at a higher level in February than a bunch of GC climbers?

 

[samhocking]

A year and a month back he posted that, not a month.

 

[thehog]

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

I did. Did you see it? The next three riders were Landa, Fuglsang and Poels, so clearly not a finish for climbers

Are we shocked that a guy who focuses on the classics is at a higher level in February than a bunch of GC climbers?

I’m not shocked, no. I’m also not shocked that Wellens wants Froome suspended. Wellens is good for the sport, Dawg not.

 

[therhodeo]

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

I did. Did you see it? The next three riders were Landa, Fuglsang and Poels, so clearly not a finish for climbers

Are we shocked that a guy who focuses on the classics is at a higher level in February than a bunch of GC climbers?

I’m not shocked, no. I’m also not shocked that Wellens wants Froome suspended. Wellens is good for the sport, Dawg not.

It warmed my heart listening to Eurosport give Sky PR tips for Froome during Andalucia. Yes please lets soften this all as much as possible.

 

[samhocking]

I wouldn't say he's necessarily good for cycling, afterall everything he says is based on his own personal ethics rather than what the rules allow all teams to do and that might change cycling for the good.
I notice it was his team doctor who tried to issue him a TUE for we assume Corticosteroids to continue the Tour last year with his bad allergies and it was his team doctors saying if he used an inhaler for his asthma, he would be controlling it to breath normally again. But, he justifies refusing them in the media, by using a Sky reasoning, as being bad for cycling if he accepted it, despite his own team clearly, at least with Wellens, attempting to do exactly the same as Sky anyway is simply not a good way to view the theraputic issue ethically.
He could have said something about that in the context of his own team and the rules should change, rather than win the cheap media ticket by making it a Sky problem, when it's his team equally doing the same thing at least in terms of the end result being no different between Lotto & Sky.

 

[thehog]

Climber? It was a 1km climb riddled with broken cobblestones, did you actually see the stage?

RoboLanda was not far behind but he didn’t have the pure power Wellens did to hold on.

I did. Did you see it? The next three riders were Landa, Fuglsang and Poels, so clearly not a finish for climbers

Are we shocked that a guy who focuses on the classics is at a higher level in February than a bunch of GC climbers?

I’m not shocked, no. I’m also not shocked that Wellens wants Froome suspended. Wellens is good for the sport, Dawg not.

It warmed my heart listening to Eurosport give Sky PR tips for Froome during Andalucia. Yes please lets soften this all as much as possible.

I did laugh at Johan Brailsford attempting to dumb it down into number of “puffs” rather than Froome mainlining huge amounts of Salbutamol :surprised:

He is such a fraud.

 

[proffate]

A year and a month back he posted that, not a month.

good catch. I heard Carlton Kirby mention that he'd published power numbers and that's what I found but I didn't notice the year. So here is this year[1]. 513w for 10 minutes! 7.3 w/kg braaaaaaaaap

[1] https://www.facebook.com/TimWellens199/photos/a.256210724575279.1073741830.123919844471035/741532346043112/?type=3&theater

 

[proffate]

But this begs the question: if the purpose of the exercise was to determine his maximum power at ten minutes, why did he bother to record values at longer times? If those weren't maximum outputs, why nclude them on the same graph?

He simply recorded a ride, including warm up and cooldown, and his analysis software created that graph and he shared it with fans. He's not a data scientist. He doesn't need to show a graph at all because he only cares about one point on it, which he highlighted with his mouse to get the relevant tool tip.

 

[miguelindurain111]

A year and a month back he posted that, not a month.

good catch. I heard Carlton Kirby mention that he'd published power numbers and that's what I found but I didn't notice the year. So here is this year[1]. 513w for 10 minutes! 7.3 w/kg braaaaaaaaap

[1] https://www.facebook.com/TimWellens199/photos/a.256210724575279.1073741830.123919844471035/741532346043112/?type=3&theater

But Wellens is good for the sport.

 

[ClassicomanoLuigi]

good catch. I heard Carlton Kirby mention that he'd published power numbers and that's what I found but I didn't notice the year. So here is this year[1]. 513w for 10 minutes! 7.3 w/kg braaaaaaaaap

That's kind of a big improvement, 5% more power in the 10-minute test, versus one year ago. Certainly can mean the difference between placing and winning. At the elite level where it's exponentially more difficult to improve further, and most of the riding is to maintain the level near the top of a plateau.

I don't have real data from other riders to compare to, but Wellen's figures at that point in the power-profile graph must be near the top of the pro peloton

 

[Blanco]

A year and a month back he posted that, not a month.

good catch. I heard Carlton Kirby mention that he'd published power numbers and that's what I found but I didn't notice the year. So here is this year[1]. 513w for 10 minutes! 7.3 w/kg braaaaaaaaap

[1] https://www.facebook.com/TimWellens199/photos/a.256210724575279.1073741830.123919844471035/741532346043112/?type=3&theater

But Wellens is good for the sport.

Well, he's not bad, that's sure, unlike some others..

 

[brownbobby]

good catch. I heard Carlton Kirby mention that he'd published power numbers and that's what I found but I didn't notice the year. So here is this year[1]. 513w for 10 minutes! 7.3 w/kg braaaaaaaaap

That's kind of a big improvement, 5% more power in the 10-minute test, versus one year ago. Certainly can mean the difference between placing and winning. At the elite level where it's exponentially more difficult to improve further, and most of the riding is to maintain the level near the top of a plateau.

I don't have real data from other riders to compare to, but Wellen's figures at that point in the power-profile graph must be near the top of the pro peloton

Was thinking exactly the same....5% improvement in 12 months for a seasoned WT pro who already had to be somewhere near his genetic potential in terms of power output is startling. The kind of improvements that you would normally associate with....oh wait, lets not go there.

Although we would need to understand the context of the 2 sets of data, ie were they both actual tests undertaken with some kind of controlled conditions, or simply 10 minute peak power extracted from training rides. This could explain the jump if certain variables were in play.

 

[proffate]

Since this is self-published data from two individual training rides, there's a pretty simple explanation for the improvement: the power meter is wrong (one or the other or both). I find many people place way too much trust in their power meter, probably because they think if it's expensive it has to work right, but I've personally found way more that read high or low than spot on*, and even the accurate ones need to be zeroed out every ride. That said, his Andalucia performance can't be chalked up to inaccuracies.

My initial question stands unanswered, perhaps it seemed rhetorical but it is not: what 10 minute w/kg number is considered the upper limit of natural human physiology?

*i.e. judged by alignment with online VAM calculators