Time to treat pro's like prisoners?

[Benotti69]

Is it time to treat the pro's like they do in other sports, i.e. F1 only 8 engines for a full year. MotoGP 2 bikes for a race etc...

So a team turns up to a GT and they have to leave their bikes (1 spare) with neutral servicing. They are chaperonned for the whole time. No DS, no team doctor, No Masseuse no mechanics, no radios.

Everything is supplied by the GT organisers. Riders race, they all have the same food, same doctors, masseuses, chefs etc on a rotation so to prevent as much shenanigans, doping, boosting, transfusing etc before or after a stage.

Every rider gives a sample everyday, they test a selection including stage winner and most aggressive, the rest tested after a team mate tests positive.

kind of a baby giro but for the big babies

the sport needs to take some serious measures to save it from slipping into a freak show, as perceived by the non cycling fans.

we cannot depend on the bike manufacturers and other cycling related industries to take a stance as they have not to date because they must have blood on their hands too. they dont realise that they are gonna lose big time.

 

[Animal]

Well, the equipment is not a huge issue. Obviously there's some advantage in technical enhancements, but it's the rider who needs monitoring.

I suggested years ago that there should be no private team doctors, and that doctors should be assigned by the UCI to the ProTour and Continental teams. Team doctors must look after the athlete's health and check that no doping takes place. They should be independent from the team and be part of the monitoring process.

 

[ultimobici]

Is it time to treat the pro's like they do in other sports, i.e. F1 only 8 engines for a full year. MotoGP 2 bikes for a race etc...

So a team turns up to a GT and they have to leave their bikes (1 spare) with neutral servicing. They are chaperonned for the whole time. No DS, no team doctor, No Masseuse no mechanics, no radios.

Everything is supplied by the GT organisers. Riders race, they all have the same food, same doctors, masseuses, chefs etc on a rotation so to prevent as much shenanigans, doping, boosting, transfusing etc before or after a stage.

Every rider gives a sample everyday, they test a selection including stage winner and most aggressive, the rest tested after a team mate tests positive.

kind of a baby giro but for the big babies

the sport needs to take some serious measures to save it from slipping into a freak show, as perceived by the non cycling fans.

we cannot depend on the bike manufacturers and other cycling related industries to take a stance as they have not to date because they must have blood on their hands too. they dont realise that they are gonna lose big time.

I think that is the only way one could have control. Problem is who runs it? Organisers & UCI both have vested interests, so cannot be trusted IMO.

 

[ultimobici]

Well, the equipment is not a huge issue. Obviously there's some advantage in technical enhancements, but it's the rider who needs monitoring.

I suggested years ago that there should be no private team doctors, and that doctors should be assigned by the UCI to the ProTour and Continental teams. Team doctors must look after the athlete's health and check that no doping takes place. They should be independent from the team and be part of the monitoring process.

This is one option that I find amazing the UCI haven't implemented years ago!

 

[L'arriviste]

Well, the equipment is not a huge issue. Obviously there's some advantage in technical enhancements, but it's the rider who needs monitoring.

I suggested years ago that there should be no private team doctors, and that doctors should be assigned by the UCI to the ProTour and Continental teams. Team doctors must look after the athlete's health and check that no doping takes place. They should be independent from the team and be part of the monitoring process.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, to quote miserable old Juvenal - who will guard the guards?

If the UCI could be trusted to manage this, then it's a good idea. Certainly would be a legal and technical headache to implement but it's obviously an attractive idea.

 

[Benotti69]

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, to quote miserable old Juvenal - who will guard the guards?

If the UCI could be trusted to manage this, then it's a good idea. Certainly would be a legal and technical headache to implement but it's obviously an attractive idea.

who watches the watchmen? yep that's the old problem, it's why the jails are full of drugs..

probably unworkable 100%, but nothing is full proof but it is worth considering and if the sport cant look after itself properly then they dont deserve to run it themselves and god knows the UCI has proven that time and time again..

 

[L'arriviste]

As many of you know, I only came back to cycling this season after 15 years away. It's not that I lived in a vacuum, but you know how it is, beyond hearing that LA had won 8 Tours, it was pretty quiet.

One thing that surprised me, as I started to read how things had been since then, was the UCI's "whereabouts" requirements. I just posted about Assan Bazayev on another thread and I think it was with Michael Rasmussen that I first really learned that your every move is recorded these days.

So aren't the pros a bit like prisoners already? They have to live like monks, the cops raid them while they're busy (Leukemans) and Fat Pat has to know where they've been. Oh, I know that all this has happened because of etc etc, it just reminds me of that neckbrace penitentiary at the start of The Running Man, a film that - try as I might - I cannot fail to enjoy every time I see it.

 

[The Bald Eagle]

I am not trying to change the topic of this thread but an interesting point made by Benotti69.


Quote " the sport need's to take some serious measures to save it from slipping into a freak show "

Yes the UCI need to take an immediate and unprecedented stance in the fight against Doping . By introducing Mandatory Life Time ban's for those cyclist's who are caught doping. Without the possibility of appeal once a case is proven. Larger fines need also be introduced. A law need's to be enacted by the goverment of a Country to bring fraud charges against any professional sports person, who are cheating their sponsor's, by engaging in the illicit practice, of using performance enhancing substances.

 

[euanli]

There whereabouts system is easily beaten and more like a mild annoyance than prison

 

[Darryl Webster]

The salution to doping is to remove the incentive , cost/ benifit.
Starting with DS`s. DS`s should receive suspension regardless of knowlege of the doping for 6 to 12 months. Any DS proved to have had knowlege or involvement of team members doping should banned from involvment in a team for 5 years first offence, life a 2nd. Same for riders.
The doctor issue is legaly a minefield though one salution for grand tours is for the respected health departments of thethe Gt`s appoint a team of doctors for the duration of the races avaiable to monitor all the riders, check blood values and prescibe treetments that help keep values in the "fit for pupose" range.
Teams need to be fined...large fines. Suspension from races also.
Ultimatly races themselves to be suspended for a season if they have accesive possitive tests.
The presure on riders to not dope has to come from those with the most to lose and those same people have to feel the pain of sanction every bit as much as a rider.
"Cannon Fodder", that old description of domestic riders sai`s it all ...riders are dispensible and plentifull....with that attitude and impunity to punishment in most case`s its no suprise DS`s at best turn a blind eye and at worst are directly involved in doping.
If I seem to be putting a lot on the shoulders of DS`s its because I believe they hold the key to stopping most doping.
Almost all doping goes on with the knowledge of DS`s. They lie about that of course, hence the need to sanction regardless of proof of that knowlege.
It therefore follows, as the paymasters, they should feel a great deal of presure to run a clean house.

 

[Darryl Webster]

The salution to doping is to remove the incentive , cost/ benifit.
Starting with DS`s. DS`s should receive suspension regardless of knowlege of the doping for 6 to 12 months. Any DS proved to have had knowlege or involvement of team members doping should banned from involvment in a team for 5 years first offence, life a 2nd. Same for riders.
The doctor issue is legaly a minefield though one salution for grand tours is for the respected health departments of the Gt`s appoint a team of doctors for the duration of the races avaiable to monitor all the riders, check blood values and prescibe treetments that help keep values in the "fit for pupose" range.
Teams need to be fined...large fines. Suspension from races also.
Ultimatly races themselves to be suspended for a season if they have accesive possitive tests.
The presure on riders to not dope has to come from those with the most to lose and those same people have to feel the pain of sanction every bit as much as a rider.
"Cannon Fodder", that old description of domestic riders sai`s it all ...riders are dispensible and plentifull....with that attitude and impunity to punishment in most case`s its no suprise DS`s at best turn a blind eye and at worst are directly involved in doping.
If I seem to be putting a lot on the shoulders of DS`s its because I believe they hold the key to stopping most doping.
Almost all doping goes on with the knowledge of DS`s. They lie about that of course, hence the need to sanction regardless of proof of that knowlege.
It therefore follows, as the paymasters, they should feel a great deal of presure to run a clean house.

 

[ultimobici]

I think that we will keep coming back to the issue of "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" at every turn. Problem is the body charged with this function to date has shown itself to be wholly incapable of addressing the problem at its root. All they have concerned themselves with is papering over the cracks so the outside world doesn't notice.

I don't see how the UCI can be viewed as an organisation that is morally capable of policing this.

 

[nicholaaaas]

Is it time to treat the pro's like they do in other sports, i.e. F1 only 8 engines for a full year. MotoGP 2 bikes for a race etc...

So a team turns up to a GT and they have to leave their bikes (1 spare) with neutral servicing. They are chaperonned for the whole time. No DS, no team doctor, No Masseuse no mechanics, no radios.

Everything is supplied by the GT organisers. Riders race, they all have the same food, same doctors, masseuses, chefs etc on a rotation so to prevent as much shenanigans, doping, boosting, transfusing etc before or after a stage.

Every rider gives a sample everyday, they test a selection including stage winner and most aggressive, the rest tested after a team mate tests positive.

kind of a baby giro but for the big babies

the sport needs to take some serious measures to save it from slipping into a freak show, as perceived by the non cycling fans.

we cannot depend on the bike manufacturers and other cycling related industries to take a stance as they have not to date because they must have blood on their hands too. they dont realise that they are gonna lose big time.

seriously? treat them like prisoners? sounds more like your personal freak show

 

[scribe]

As many of you know, I only came back to cycling this season after 15 years away. It's not that I lived in a vacuum, but you know how it is, beyond hearing that LA had won 8 Tours, it was pretty quiet.

One thing that surprised me, as I started to read how things had been since then, was the UCI's "whereabouts" requirements. I just posted about Assan Bazayev on another thread and I think it was with Michael Rasmussen that I first really learned that your every move is recorded these days.

So aren't the pros a bit like prisoners already? They have to live like monks, the cops raid them while they're busy (Leukemans) and Fat Pat has to know where they've been. Oh, I know that all this has happened because of etc etc, it just reminds me of that neckbrace penitentiary at the start of The Running Man, a film that - try as I might - I cannot fail to enjoy every time I see it.

I think they have to know their whereabouts so that random testing can be administered. Otherwise, these guys would easily become unavailable for months at a time.

I am for transparency during a tour. Your things and quarters should be constantly subject to inspection by teams with several layers of different organizations to reduce abuse. There should be 'across the board' urine and blood samples taken, but not necessarily tested. I think they do the best they can right now with controls....because it is the margins of error factor that riders are easily manipulating. Hopefully, all this will be better and better.

I don't think it is realistic to ban doctors. They can serve a useful purpose and banning them will only increase the appearance of quacks dangerously practicing medicine.

 

[ultimobici]

Why is it not possible to require anyone involved in sport to be licenced
and couple that with a requirement for riders to register who their doctor, masseur & other support staff are?

There could also be penalties for using the services of any outside individuals without a good demonstrable reason.

Doping control samples should, as I think Lemond has suggested, be split into 4. Two are tested in the usual way they are now. In the event of a positive the second pair can be tested at another lab to exonerate/convict in an open manner.

Only problem is we keep coming back to how all this is administered and more worryingly by whom?

 

[scribe]

Why is it not possible to require anyone involved in sport to be licenced
and couple that with a requirement for riders to register who their doctor, masseur & other support staff are?

There could also be penalties for using the services of any outside individuals without a good demonstrable reason.

Doping control samples should, as I think Lemond has suggested, be split into 4. Two are tested in the usual way they are now. In the event of a positive the second pair can be tested at another lab to exonerate/convict in an open manner.

Only problem is we keep coming back to how all this is administered and more worryingly by whom?

Lots of oversight and associated legal implications. How much is too much(?), really is the question. There has to be a balance.

Why not let these guys see physicians? There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

 

[Oldman]

Lots of oversight and associated legal implications. How much is too much(?), really is the question. There has to be a balance.

Why not let these guys see physicians? There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

Physicians are bought and sold like everybody else. It's time for the riders to quit acting like criminals and adopt systems that have independent testing. The Lemond suggestion for an independent lab, like AFLD for and event and another control lab with samples for backup testing could work. As for penalties that's another subject but they need to have teeth.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Gerdemann was ready for it. 24 h in a "glass house" before and at the TdF. But nobody wanted to pay for it.

 

[ultimobici]

Lots of oversight and associated legal implications. How much is too much(?), really is the question. There has to be a balance.

Why not let these guys see physicians? There is nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's much simpler and easier to positively vet someone than ban them after the effect.

 

[Anonymous]

The salution to doping is to remove the incentive , cost/ benifit.
Starting with DS`s. DS`s should receive suspension regardless of knowlege of the doping for 6 to 12 months. Any DS proved to have had knowlege or involvement of team members doping should banned from involvment in a team for 5 years first offence, life a 2nd. Same for riders.
The doctor issue is legaly a minefield though one salution for grand tours is for the respected health departments of the Gt`s appoint a team of doctors for the duration of the races avaiable to monitor all the riders, check blood values and prescibe treetments that help keep values in the "fit for pupose" range.
Teams need to be fined...large fines. Suspension from races also.
Ultimatly races themselves to be suspended for a season if they have accesive possitive tests.
The presure on riders to not dope has to come from those with the most to lose and those same people have to feel the pain of sanction every bit as much as a rider.
"Cannon Fodder", that old description of domestic riders sai`s it all ...riders are dispensible and plentifull....with that attitude and impunity to punishment in most case`s its no suprise DS`s at best turn a blind eye and at worst are directly involved in doping.
If I seem to be putting a lot on the shoulders of DS`s its because I believe they hold the key to stopping most doping.
Almost all doping goes on with the knowledge of DS`s. They lie about that of course, hence the need to sanction regardless of proof of that knowlege.
It therefore follows, as the paymasters, they should feel a great deal of presure to run a clean house.

Best idea yet. Make everyone accountable, not just the rider!!

 

[jae2460]

What if the race organisers simply assigned an independent guard to each of the top 10 during the grand tours. That guard was to stay with the rider 100% of the time when they are off the bike. They stand outside the shower, they are in their room at night when they're sleeping or at least standing guard outside and inspect the room and its contents beforehand. Seems to me that it would be possible to remove substantial doubt that the person at least did a blood transfusion. I suppose the rider might be able to sneak a pill or two, but seems to me that all of the blood and urine testing during the grand tours could/should detect those.

 

[scribe]

Physicians are bought and sold like everybody else. It's time for the riders to quit acting like criminals and adopt systems that have independent testing. The Lemond suggestion for an independent lab, like AFLD for and event and another control lab with samples for backup testing could work. As for penalties that's another subject but they need to have teeth.

While I think an independent lab is a great idea, I don't think anything will ever be enough to sate Lemond's view of the world.

 

[MarkvW]

Nanotech!

I say no secrets.

Start with making the riders disclose heart rate, speed, and wattage data online--in real time. When the technology becomes feasible, do the same thing with blood values. WADA could calibrate.

It would make watching a race way more interesting. The racers could use the data to identify weakness and plan attacks, while viewers watch it unfold.

The data would be even cooler over many races. You could really spot abnormality.

Real fun in a nerd way.

 

[luckyboy]

Last month Candido Barbosa suggested that the Portuguese fed should introduce electronic tagging instead of the whereabouts forms.

 

[nicholaaaas]

I say no secrets.

Start with making the riders disclose heart rate, speed, and wattage data online--in real time. When the technology becomes feasible, do the same thing with blood values. WADA could calibrate.

It would make watching a race way more interesting. The racers could use the data to identify weakness and plan attacks, while viewers watch it unfold.

The data would be even cooler over many races. You could really spot abnormality.

Real fun in a nerd way.

that wouldn't make the races even more boring