Time trialing vs Climbing?

[nilfen]

Usually, the good mountain climbers does not weigh much, while good TT'ers usually are heavier.

Is it possible, without the aid of banned substances, to be among the best in both disciplines, speaking from a physiological view?

 

[DirtyWorks]

Usually, the good mountain climbers does not weigh much, while good TT'ers usually are heavier.

Is it possible, without the aid of banned substances, to be among the best in both disciplines, speaking from a physiological view?

Possible how?
Possible naturally from an early age of displaying the power? Sure.
Possible doping from some point onward? Sure.

What rank is possible?
Clean in the elite international racing, IMHO very rarely top-10. You would probably spend most of your time supporting doping. I'm assuming your theoretical rider has so much human power racing at a national level is boring.

Go back to the 1970's and earlier and you'll find many of the elites rode track/'cross in the winter.

 

[nilfen]

Possible how?
Possible naturally from an early age of displaying the power? Sure.
Possible doping from some point onward? Sure.

What rank is possible?
Clean in the elite international racing, IMHO very rarely top-10. You would probably spend most of your time supporting doping. I'm assuming your theoretical rider has so much human power racing at a national level is boring.

Go back to the 1970's and earlier and you'll find many of the elites rode track/'cross in the winter.

Thinking of current pro-cycling and of course today's ITT.

Im just looking for an explanation why a "big" guy like Froome is faster uphill than a guy like Quintana. Or why a "skinny" guy like Froome can go faster than Tony Martin in an ITT. I know doping is the obvious answer, but will any other answer make any sense??

 

[meat puppet]

the key variables determining performance levels are not the same in climbing and TTing. surely one has to generate power, but while climbing power in relation to weight is the key whilst in time trialling power in relation to the frontal area of the rider is the key.

in general, smaller riders have an advantage in optimizing the key climbing variable and bigger riders the TTing one.

with regard to your question in the OP, IMHO contador's TT win in 09 was dodgier than verbier, even if we account for the role of recovering abilities at the end of a GT. there is a reason for top TTers being rouleur type bigger riders.

someone will surely explain all the details better and correct my mistakes.

 

[del1962]

Pre 02 vectoring there where ppl who where good at both though.

LeMond won time trials and mountain stages, same with Mercxx and Hinault.

 

[meat puppet]

true, but they were no stick insects either, just guys with big engines and very good all-round abilities

 

[EnacheV]

Pre 02 vectoring there where ppl who where good at both though.

LeMond won time trials and mountain stages, same with Mercxx and Hinault.

shhh

don't come with anything close to defending Froome

as the formula good climber + good tt'er = tdf gc contender is not already known for 60+ years

you don;t see sprinters winning tdf don;t you?

 

[The Hitch]

Pre 02 vector doping gt riders were also good in sprints and cobbles.

 

[hrotha]

true, but they were no stick insects either, just guys with big engines and very good all-round abilities

And they were typically not the faster climbers. Just more consistent. They were often beaten by pure climbers who weren't so well-rounded for the GC.

 

[The Hitch]

Some gt riders might be good in final week tts because there is the recovery aspect, they are on form and they have extra motivation.

Bit different however when a rider podiums/ wins the tdf, goes into an Olympic tt 20kg below his ideal weight to the event, up against people who peaked specifically for the event, are not fatigued were not on a 5 month long peak and are not 20kg below ideal weight, and still blows them out of the water/ podiums

 

[darwin553]

Usually a good climber doesn't equate into a good TT in my experience but of course doping can change all that.

 

[Cookster15]

I believe Cadel Evans has made several oblique references in the past year to "skinny climbers who are also strong in TT". No doubt in trying to explain Wiggins and Froome's performances.

As somebody above said, in a Flat TT it is Power versus aerodynamic drag (Watts/coefficient of friction x frontal area) - or something like this. In an uphill TT it is power versus weight (Watts/Kg). So a heavy rider needs to produce way more power than lighter riders to maintain the same speed uphill.

Weight makes little difference on the flat except for some extra friction in the tyres due to the added weight.

All this is why Watts / Kg is discussed so much in here when talking about doping.

So if the much lighter Froome gets anywhere near Tony Martin in tonights flat TT many more questions will be asked in those threads

 

[DirtyWorks]

Usually a good climber doesn't equate into a good TT in my experience but of course doping can change all that.

Pre O2 doping, there were climbing specialists. They would win the mountain stages with GC contenders following in behind. Similarly, a TT specialist could win in their event, but the GC guys would be right behind them.

If I recall correctly, there was a time a GC podium had riders who did not win stages. If you read historic accounts of various grand tours, you'll occasionally see that mentioned as a criticism of some riders. That's all gone with doping too.

 

[enCYCLOpedia]

Some gt riders might be good in final week tts because there is the recovery aspect, they are on form and they have extra motivation. Bit different however when a rider [...] goes into an Olympic tt

I think this is a very important distinction. In a grand tour, time trial specialists are often tired towards the end, and can get beaten by GC contenders who recover better.

In an individual time trial, it's different - at least that's the theory. However, Froome's and Wiggins' performances were nothing special compared to recent performances by GC riders in Olympic time trials: In 2008, Levi Leipheimer* was third, in 2004 Tyler Hamilton* won and Bobby Julich* was third, and in 2000, Jan Ullrich* was second and Lance Armstrong* was third.

You can read that whichever way you like.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I think this is a very important distinction. In a grand tour, time trial specialists are often tired towards the end, and can get beaten by GC contenders who recover better.

It's subjective, naturally, but I don't think it's a given that a TTer specialist is going to be more tired at 2+ hours behind the podium placer, given they are autobussing it and "saving" themselves as much as possible for the TT stages.

Particularly for TTer specialists with significant training / racing age / experience, like Martin.

 

[Ferminal]

I think it runs both ways. There have been some remarkable climbing performances by riders who once upon a time were probably considered rouleurs. But you also have some ridiculous ITT performances by those who are good climbers and either physically or historically not predisposed to good times against the clock.

Perhaps the climbing dynamic is more interesting as it makes it easier for pure rouleurs to get over climbs and be very useful as domestiques on early climbs in mountain stages, making them more controllable.

 

[Almeisan]

First one is about watts/kg the other about watts/drag.

Not impossible for both the watts to be high relative to kg and to drag. Usually being more muscular and bigger body size will give you more watts and increase your kg. But it won't increase your air resistance that much.

There are always people that can produce a lot of watts and have a big engine and that climb well despite being not extremely thin/small. But for some reason they can't TT as well as one would expect.
People have a natural profile that may decide if they TT well or not.

Tony Martin wants to become a GC rider. Maybe he will move to Sky?

If you are too muscular you can starve out muscle and lower muscle mass by completely overtraining those fibers. But you will get slower on the TT.
If he goes to Sky he can lose 4 to 6 kg and TT faster.

 

[happychappy]

It seemed to work for Evans in the 2011 tour. He was as strong as anyone in the mountains and only lost 7 seconds to Martin in the 42km TT. He even managed a little shrug at the end as he crossed the line barely out of breath. Good times!

 

[Cloxxki]

If a climber has short legs, he could be a fast TT'er.
Me, I have hoge power for an amateur, but my super long legs make me slow in a straight line. Air drag. Uphill, I can stay with surprisingly skinny tiny little goats on wheels. I can stay with them on tight singletrack. But when the trail opens up to asphalt, they ride me out of their wheel.
That's not about W/kg, but frontal surface/kg.

 

[durianrider]

Its not about big legs lol!

Its about how much oxygen you can pump into your cells. Look how skinny and weak Froome and Wiggins look. How much could they squat in the gym? Hardly anything. They don't have strength, they have oxygen efficiency. 6w/kg aint hard to do. Anyone can do it. What burns out is your lungs and heart. Not your legs. 6w/kg at 100rpm feels like nothing on the legs but your HR and breathing go up so much the average cyclist can only do it for a minute.

You can't compare tired GC riders with fresh TT riders that save themselves for TT events/stages to boost their palmares. Climbers would do better in the TT's if they focused on em. They typically cant though as they are knackered from holding yellow etc.

Also no big name GC rider is going to risk going poz for some TT race outside of a GT.

 

[Zweistein]

Bigger riders will almost always be faster than climbers in TTs for the sole reason that the front sectional rider of a rider his not proportional to weight. A 200 lb rider, unless he has a very unaerodynamic position, will not have twice the cross sectional area of a 100 lb rider. The 200 lb rider will probably have maybe 40% more cross sectional area. That is if both riders are spheres, which in my case isn't a bad approximation.

 

[vedrafjord]

Bigger riders will almost always be faster than climbers in TTs for the sole reason that the front sectional rider of a rider his not proportional to weight. A 200 lb rider, unless he has a very unaerodynamic position, will not have twice the cross sectional area of a 100 lb rider. The 200 lb rider will probably have maybe 40% more cross sectional area. That is if both riders are spheres, which in my case isn't a bad approximation.

Assume a spherical cow, as the old physics joke goes.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Is it possible, without the aid of banned substances, to be among the best in both disciplines, speaking from a physiological view?

Yes. It's part of what makes a GC candidate. Clearly doping has had its impact as well but putting that aside, it is possible for a rider to possess both characteristics, that is a high threshold W/kg and high threshold W/m^2.

Some riders are far more aerodynamically gifted than others, and there are a range of morphological factors that go into a rider's natural level of aero-ness (e.g. height, leg length, size/shape of shoulders, natural level of flexibility and so on), and while at a quick glance some riders may look physically similar standing up, aerodynamically they can be chalk and cheese. e.g. Schleck v Froome.

Riders can improve on their starting "natural" level of aero-ness with consistent work on their aero drag over several years (it can take many years to develop and adapt to very fast positions).

Whatever one might think about Froome's doping status, he is clearly more aerodynamic in 2013 than he was in 2011.

2011:
http://img.skysports.com/11/06/640/ChrisFroome_2611715.jpg

2013:
http://www.cyclingfans.net/2013/images/2013_criterium_du_dauphine_stage4_tt_chris_froome1.jpg

 

[darwin553]

It seemed to work for Evans in the 2011 tour. He was as strong as anyone in the mountains and only lost 7 seconds to Martin in the 42km TT. He even managed a little shrug at the end as he crossed the line barely out of breath. Good times!

I reckon you put that tiny little extra effort in if you're in the box seat for the tour win.