TNT = Thor + Tyler

[on3m@n@rmy]

Well, newly formed Garmin-Cervelo as reported by CN should make for an explosive makeup when the two T's (Thor Hushovd and Tyler Farrar) team up at the Tour.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-farrar-reinforcements-welcome-at-garmin-cervelo
It should be fun watching Garmin duke it out in the sprints against Cav and the other sprint teams. According to the report, besides Thor and Tyler the merger also brings together riders like Julian Dean, Murilo Fischer, David Millar, Martijn Maaskant and Brett Lancaster. How do you think the new squad will match up against the other sprinter teams?

It might even be fun watching the two T's jockey it out against each other. Who do you think the leader will be when the two are paired at a race such as the Tour? I'm inclined to think whoever is going better.

Also, when Tyler and Thor are in the same race I'm going to be interested in their team's tactics in the sprints.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Well, newly formed Garmin-Cervelo as reported by CN should make for an explosive makeup when the two T's (Thor Hushovd and Tyler Farrar) team up at the Tour.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-farrar-reinforcements-welcome-at-garmin-cervelo
It should be fun watching Garmin duke it out in the sprints against Cav and the other sprint teams. According to the report, besides Thor and Tyler the merger also brings together riders like Julian Dean, Murilo Fischer, David Millar, Martijn Maaskant and Brett Lancaster. How do you think the new squad will match up against the other sprinter teams?

It might even be fun watching the two T's jockey it out against each other. Who do you think the leader will be when the two are paired at a race such as the Tour? I'm inclined to think whoever is going better.

Also, when Tyler and Thor are in the same race I'm going to be interested in their team's tactics in the sprints.

If they've any sense, they will have a very good idea of exactly who is the leader for any particular stage. In my view that will be Farrar on most flat sprint stages, Hushovd in a lot of Classics and any stage with serious bumps in it. Hushovd seemed to indicate as much in a recent interview.

The key is to play to the strengths of each rather than have them waste energy and support competing with each other.

As far as competing with Cav goes on flat sprint stages, whether Farrar can regularly challenge him will depend what kind of support and lead out he gets. Cavendish is faster, but Farrar is probably the next fastest. Hushovd cannot compete with Cavendish in a flat mass sprint, at least not at this point of his career.

I actually think it will be more interesting seeing how Garmin go at the Classics. They have a really high quality team.

 

[pedaling squares]

If they've any sense, they will have a very good idea of exactly who is the leader for any particular stage.

I agree. They should know who is better suited to the stage and be prepared to support that rider. Each rider has different strengths that should be complimentary in a sense as each can try to win different types of bunch sprint stages.

 

[Eric8-A]

Both Tyler and Thor have said that they are willing to work for each other. At the moment, it seems like they're on good terms and it doesn't seem like they're both going to develop a Greipel and Cavendish type of feud.

The leadout with Lancaster seems to add some strength. I just hope tyler stays on Julian's wheel instead of just doing his own sprint.

Anybody else notice Tyler never stays on Julian's wheel for too long? Or is it just me.

 

[washedup]

I sure hope the combination adds up to something special. I have always been a big fan of both. Still, my gut instinct upon the announcement of Thor coming over was that it was a bad idea. Indeed, they will not be like Cav-Greipo, but there is only one Greipel.

When you see that line, it is hard to resist. When you see that line, you have on a rainbow jersey, it must be even harder to resist.

But dude, what a combination they could be. This coming season may become the season of the greatest Anglo battle in the history of the sport.

 

[The Hitch]

I would say Thor for the Tour. The new system mixes it up a bit so i have no idea how races will turn out. People say that it means breaks will be caught before half way but this gives possibilities for other breaks to form after the halfway mark.

Anyhoo, Thor is not going to win the green by winning sprints. His aim is to get intermediate points. What Garmin should do is make sure THor has a fair ammount of points before those hilly stages. Then in hilly stages, make him go. This forces htc to kill themselves to make sure Thor doesnt go, weakening them for the sprints with Farrar.

 

[Oldman]

I would say Thor for the Tour. The new system mixes it up a bit so i have no idea how races will turn out. People say that it means breaks will be caught before half way but this gives possibilities for other breaks to form after the halfway mark.

Anyhoo, Thor is not going to win the green by winning sprints. His aim is to get intermediate points. What Garmin should do is make sure THor has a fair ammount of points before those hilly stages. Then in hilly stages, make him go. This forces htc to kill themselves to make sure Thor doesnt go, weakening them for the sprints with Farrar.

This makes as much sense in theory for the Tour or Classics with other opponents. Thor has the power to make a final, select Roubaix finish but Tyler has a faster finish.
Given the Tour or other GC the strategy is always simple: take the Green points with your leader or take them with some other rider so the rivals don't accumulate. Unfortunately that choice needs to be made early with two guys in the mix. They'll need to judge their race chances well before the start and settle on the a strategy or fight each other.

 

[ingsve]

Anybody else notice Tyler never stays on Julian's wheel for too long? Or is it just me.

Yes, that's been a problem in the past at least. I didn't see too many examples of it this year though so perhaps he's getting better at it. Last year you could see sprints where other sprinters would just ride up along side Farrar and then just easily push Farrarr off of his own leadout wheel.

I think that now both with the increased respect Farrar has gotten by doing really well in sprints along with the increased power and thoughness of the leadout train it's more likely that other sprinters will respect their leadout and instead fight for Farrars wheel to get a good position.

 

[ingsve]

I would say Thor for the Tour. The new system mixes it up a bit so i have no idea how races will turn out. People say that it means breaks will be caught before half way but this gives possibilities for other breaks to form after the halfway mark.

Anyhoo, Thor is not going to win the green by winning sprints. His aim is to get intermediate points. What Garmin should do is make sure THor has a fair ammount of points before those hilly stages. Then in hilly stages, make him go. This forces htc to kill themselves to make sure Thor doesnt go, weakening them for the sprints with Farrar.

Well, I actually think the new system dictates that they should definately go with Farrar for green. Remember that they have increased the points for winning sprint stages to 45 points which means that Cavendish would have an even bigger advantage if he wins a sprint and Hushovd is 4-10th like this year.

Also the new intermediate system awards points for the top 15 riders each stage. This means that on every stage where there are not huge mountains Cavendish will also be able to sprint for points even when there is a breakaway out. Normally on a flat or semiflat stage all the points would be neutralized by the break and the peloton would have no say in it but now they too will be sprinting for points on all stages and to me that is just further advantage for Cav against Hushovd. Cavendish will certainly not ignore those intermediate sprints when there are perhaps 10-12 points to fight for still there after the break takes the first few places.

The only thing that I see that could potentially make the situation between Hushovd and Farrar a little murky is that there are several thougher stages in the beginning that Hushovd could win giving him a lead over Farrar in the points ranking and that could put some pressure on them to ride for Hushovd eventhough in the long run Farrar would be the better choice. Stage 1, 4 and 5 seem to be the stages that end a little uphill or that has a bump near the end and it's those stages that Hushovd thinks he has a chance to win if other sprinters have difficulty staying with the peloton.

 

[galaxy1]

I think this is a terrible idea, overall. Even assuming the two can stay on good terms despite the obvious pressures on their relationship.

Surely the team have to support Thor at the Tour because he is the only proven success story there. Even taking Farrar detracts from their support for him.

(unless Thor has now given up on pure sprinting entirely, which is possible. He has been an "easy classics and sprint top-10s" man for quite a while now)

 

[ingsve]

(unless Thor has now given up on pure sprinting entirely, which is possible. He has been an "easy classics and sprint top-10s" man for quite a while now)

In his own words; he has grown tired of finishing second to Cavendish and has realized that he will never beat Cav in a flat sprint. He's not interested in any more 2-10th places so he will help Farrar who he thinks has a better chance at beating Cav in a flat sprint and instead focus on stage wins on stages where other sprinters will struggle to follow the best riders.

 

[Kvinto]

IMO about new point system, Mark, Thor and Tyler at TDF:
So, if points at the intermediate sprints will be awarded to top-15 riders, even if 14 riders would be in the breakaway there would still remain 1 point to sprint for.
Many things will depend on how strong Cavendish will be next year. If he’ll remain the best, what is most likely, HTC will be the only team interested in catching the breakaways before the intermediate sprints on the flat stages, subject to Cavendish would need these points. Some of us a bit overrate Mark's need of lead-out train. Yes, it’s easier to win with good lead-out but look at this year’s Tour, when Renshaw was disqualified. Yes, he can’t do well 300m sprint, it’s too hard for him but it’s his sprinting specificity. He proved he can find the right wheel if its necessary (look at 18th and 20th stages of Tour). He need the team to bring him to the final kms if the are some difficulties like hills or wind. Now we approach to the main Cavendish weakness, his lack of stability. He is such a type of sprinter: he can be 1st or he is not there. If you want to have green jersey you have to take it day by day, competing for the points. But when you are out of sprint one day it’s hard to come back in point classification. He often has bad start in GTs: for 2 last seasons he did 4 GTs and only in 2009 Tour de France he had no problems on the first stages. That’s why Cavendish may need these intermediate points. But even strong HTC team can’t catch every break on every flat stage, doing this alone. Also by now we don’t know what difference between points for 1-2 (1-3) places on the intermediate sprints will be, but I do not believe in total breakaways catching before int.sprints on every stage, it’s simply impossible.
Then Thor. I wonder how short is our memory We started considering him as a sprinter for only top-10 TDF stage finishes, looking at only 2010 Tour results… But didn’t we forget that he had collarbone break in May? He just couldn’t improve his form till Tour. But he finished 3rd in point classification (not being the third sprinter). While Mark is the best, Hushovd in a top form remains one of the strongest sprinters in the peloton, he’s the man for green at 2011 TDF. This point system suits him most, because even not catching breaks before int.sprints there will be some stages where Thor can gain intermediate points, while Cav and Farrar will not be there.
The last is Tyley. Tyler is simple, he’s just the intermediate version between Mark and Thor. A little bit better sprinter than Hushovd and better climber than Cavendish. I do not see him as strong as Cavendish at next year’s Tour. He can contend for green but he doesn’t have the chances that Thor has. It’s up to Garmin: if they want to go for a green with Thor, they can; if they want to do it with Tyler, they also can, but if they want to have 2 captains they’ll surely fail.
Edit: By the way TNT is not Thor + Tyler, but TNT = Bon Scott + Young brothers

 

[nowhereman]

Did everybody forget about Heinrich Haussler????? Before last seasons problems he was right there with Cavendish. I think Tn'T are going to have their hands full already, but Haussler will definitely add to the chaos!!

 

[ingsve]

HTC will be the only team interested in catching the breakaways before the intermediate sprints on the flat stages, subject to Cavendish would need these points.

No, HTC will certainly not be interested in bringing back any breaks before the intermediate sprint. I don't think any team will do that unless one of the other sprinters is in the break but that will probably not happen and if it does it won't happen more than a couple times. Cavendish will probably be satisfied with sprinting for whatever points are left when the peloton reaches the intermediate sprint and then at the final.

With 20 points for the winner of the intermediate sprint and 15 riders getting points that probably means that points break down will be something like 20-18-16-14-12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1. This means that if Cav wins the sprint against Hushovd/Farrar then it doesn't matter if they are first over the line and get 20-18 points or if they are 5th and 6th over and get 12 and 10 points. The diffrence between them will be the same. So on pretty much every stage it would be pointless for any team to bring back a break.

 

[ingsve]

Did everybody forget about Heinrich Haussler????? Before last seasons problems he was right there with Cavendish. I think Tn'T are going to have their hands full already, but Haussler will definitely add to the chaos!!

That depends if he will even be at the Tour which I don't take for granted. Besides when has Haussler ever shown that he can even be close to Cavendish in a bunch sprint? I don't really count MSR since Haussler jumped at an unexpected attack and Cav had to chase him down before sprinting past him.

 

[Kvinto]

No, HTC will certainly not be interested in bringing back any breaks before the intermediate sprint. I don't think any team will do that unless one of the other sprinters is in the break but that will probably not happen and if it does it won't happen more than a couple times. Cavendish will probably be satisfied with sprinting for whatever points are left when the peloton reaches the intermediate sprint and then at the final.

With 20 points for the winner of the intermediate sprint and 15 riders getting points that probably means that points break down will be something like 20-18-16-14-12-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1. This means that if Cav wins the sprint against Hushovd/Farrar then it doesn't matter if they are first over the line and get 20-18 points or if they are 5th and 6th over and get 12 and 10 points. The diffrence between them will be the same. So on pretty much every stage it would be pointless for any team to bring back a break.

Well some sources tell 25 points for top-15, others - 20/15. I don't know whom to believe Because if it'll be 25,20,18,15,12,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 these 5 point difference may be something to fight for if it'll be so necessary of course. But if 20 points is maximum, you're right, there's no reason

 

[Greenflame]

No, HTC will certainly not be interested in bringing back any breaks before the intermediate sprint. I don't think any team will do that unless one of the other sprinters is in the break but that will probably not happen and if it does it won't happen more than a couple times.

Perhaps that is the strategy for Garmin-Cervelo? Allow Thor to go for green. Let him join breakaways for the intermediate, see if he can win a sprint where the 'true' sprinters are no longer present (or perhaps from one of those escapes if HTC doesn't catch them in time?), and let him pick up some points at regular sprints. Then Cav and HTC can waste energy on bringing the escape back and winning intermediate sprints while Ferrar remains hidden in the peleton with full energy left for the finish.
If they can get Hushovd to be a threath to Cavendish for the green while Ferrar saves his energy for the finish Cavendish could be fighting a 2-way battle and will have to relinquish either a few stage wins or the green jersey. Either way, success for Garmin.

 

[ingsve]

Well some sources tell 25 points for top-15, others - 20/15. I don't know whom to believe Because if it'll be 25,20,18,15,12,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1 these 5 point difference may be something to fight for if it'll be so necessary of course. But if 20 points is maximum, you're right, there's no reason

Ya, that does seem strange. I had only seen the 20/15 number. The 20/15 option seems more in line with the 3x6 possible for winnign all three sprints in previous years though.

Either way it would still be a lot of work for just a few points and HTC and Cav have not been known as ones to chase points ouside of final sprints in the past so I still find it rather unlikely that they would start now. Cav of course have to sprint for intermediates with the rest of the peloton but that's the only chance I see in their tactic.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

They're going to chalk up some thrilling 2nds and 9ths.

 

[The Hitch]

Well, I actually think the new system dictates that they should definately go with Farrar for green. Remember that they have increased the points for winning sprint stages to 45 points which means that Cavendish would have an even bigger advantage if he wins a sprint and Hushovd is 4-10th like this year.

Also the new intermediate system awards points for the top 15 riders each stage. This means that on every stage where there are not huge mountains Cavendish will also be able to sprint for points even when there is a breakaway out. Normally on a flat or semiflat stage all the points would be neutralized by the break and the peloton would have no say in it but now they too will be sprinting for points on all stages and to me that is just further advantage for Cav against Hushovd. Cavendish will certainly not ignore those intermediate sprints when there are perhaps 10-12 points to fight for still there after the break takes the first few places.

The only thing that I see that could potentially make the situation between Hushovd and Farrar a little murky is that there are several thougher stages in the beginning that Hushovd could win giving him a lead over Farrar in the points ranking and that could put some pressure on them to ride for Hushovd eventhough in the long run Farrar would be the better choice. Stage 1, 4 and 5 seem to be the stages that end a little uphill or that has a bump near the end and it's those stages that Hushovd thinks he has a chance to win if other sprinters have difficulty staying with the peloton.

In Hushovds defense he has those friendships with all those other riders. So he just pops out for a breakaway at the begining, gets the top points, usually unchallenged, salutes the riders "thank you very much" and back into the peloton he goes.

Hushovd showed in Pau this year how good a climber he can be.

Even though the system is biased against him any stage with hills, Hushovd can wrap up some points when cav will be nowhere near.

THe problem with Farrar is that he is basically Cav but slightly slower. His tactic will be the exact same as Cavs but he will lose because Cav is slightly better. Hushovd brings other options to the table.

As for barbie, he should (and i think will) focus on classics.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

...THe problem with Farrar is that he is basically Cav but slightly slower. His tactic will be the exact same as Cavs but he will lose because Cav is slightly better....

I'd agree with that analogy of styles. Farrar's only hope is he gets better, which he could do at his age. Problem is Cav can also get better. But you ever notice how low Cav is when fully wound up in a sprint compared to everyone else? Like a bullet is he says Yoda. If one of Cav's competition can copy that profile without losing power then maybe the gap between the two gets closer.

 

[Oldman]

I'd agree with that analogy of styles. Farrar's only hope is he gets better, which he could do at his age. Problem is Cav can also get better. But you ever notice how low Cav is when fully wound up in a sprint compared to everyone else? Like a bullet is he says Yoda. If one of Cav's competition can copy that profile without losing power then maybe the gap between the two gets closer.

Farrar's never had that top spin so it's unlikely he'll develop it. Note that typically Cav comes off a really fast wheel for that type of finish and everyone is usually behind him. If Farrar/Thor combine for a leadout that controls a longer stretch to the finish; Tyler has a better long sprint to use rather than trying to jump the last 50 meters alongside Cav. HTC has been controlling the sprint venue better than other teams and Cav is that much quicker than everyone. Garmin has to change the finish IMO.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That depends if he will even be at the Tour which I don't take for granted. Besides when has Haussler ever shown that he can even be close to Cavendish in a bunch sprint? I don't really count MSR since Haussler jumped at an unexpected attack and Cav had to chase him down before sprinting past him.

If Haussler hadn't ever been close to Cavendish in a bunch sprint, he'd have been at the Tour instead of injured.

Then again, that was an off-colour Cavendish. Even so, that was Heinrich Haussler almost having the measure of Cavendish.

 

[Old School]

If Haussler hadn't ever been close to Cavendish in a bunch sprint, he'd have been at the Tour instead of injured.

Then again, that was an off-colour Cavendish. Even so, that was Heinrich Haussler almost having the measure of Cavendish.

Heinrich Haussler is fast, Thor has power and Farrar is just pure speed...can't wait to hear Cav and his excuses when he gets squeezed in a tight sprint..."They ganged up on me" (sniff, sniff).

 

[The Hitch]

I seriously doubt Barbie could beat Cav in a TDF sprint. He has other qualities, perhaps better ones but sprinting is Cavs territory