To Riders, Journo's and sports directors reading the forum...

[auscyclefan94]

To riders who read the forum,

Lets take a look at this comment from a piece released today by Anthony tan interviewing Richie Porte.

RP:“There’s so many guys that are going to criticise you, aren’t there? That’s probably more my problem; you do take it personally. I had some **** written about me on the Cyclingnews forum...”

AT:Oh, don’t go there, man. That’s an evil place!

RP: “Oh, isn’t it!” he says, chortling at the silliness of venturing there in the first place, ill-founded criticism and vitriol being par for the course on Internet forums

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/news/24336/The-trouble-with-Richie

Let me tell you something professional riders, sports directors and Anthony Tan, please tell me why I or others can't talk about what happens in the world of cycling? Why can't posters have discussion about a sport they really like? Why can't a poster (within reason) criticise a rider or someone for their actions? Just to let you know, a forum is an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. If you don't like what people say on this forum then don't read the forum. What posters say on this forum is not libel so posters can say what they damn well want and legally do so. Why does this particular forum have such a negative stereotype? I don't see how it is different to any other forum...

From ACF.


Just to let you know Richie, you suddenly riding the giro and also planning to do the tour is quite odd. Is riding the giro going to help you get down to a good race weight and let your health improve after 3 months or illness? It will only make the illness worse and why didn't the giro help you get down to a good race weight last year?

Anthony Tan, please tell me why a forum is such an "evil place" when firstly you based a whole article (quite a bad one) on BroDeal who is a CYCLINGNEWS forum poster and secondly how is this cyclingnews forum much different than posting comments about blogs on cycling central? Why don't you learn to write better articles and stop being such a hypocrite?

Rant over!

Any thoughts?

 

[Sasquatch]

lol

Any rider who takes to heart things that are said about them on a public forum are soft and if they have that short of a psychological leash then how the **** do they expect to win major races like in Richie's case Grand Tours? You need to be mentally tough to win those types of races and clearly Richie is not that if he's taking these things to heart. And that applies to any other rider whether it be Evans, Schleck, Gesink etc and not just Richie himself.

They should ignore it and just go on with their daily rituals to get the best out of themselves.

Something to ponder.

 

[auscyclefan94]

lol

Any rider who takes to heart things that are said about them on a private forum are soft and if they have that short of a psychological leash then how the **** do they expect to win major races like in Richie's case Grand Tours?

Something to ponder.

Reading that back, I lol'd at my rant. But you also raise a good point. Just going on about a forum, maybe we should cancel social media because people have an opinion about someone or something which isn't complimentary? Maybe Anthony should be a journalist any more unless he has nice things to say about everybody?

 

[Sasquatch]

Your rant wasn't what I was laughing at. Your rant was fine. I was laughing at that part of the interview.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Your rant wasn't what I was laughing at. Your rant was fine. I was laughing at that part of the interview.

Oh sorry! Directing at just Tan is unfair as most of the writers and people @CyclingCentral really **** me off with their opinion pieces.

 

[Sasquatch]

Reading that back, I lol'd at my rant. But you also raise a good point. Just going on about a forum, maybe we should cancel social media because people have an opinion about someone or something which isn't complimentary? Maybe Anthony should be a journalist any more unless he has nice things to say about everybody?

Yeah well Anthony was criticised by Porte.

"Our conversation came about because Porte read my blog on Cycling Central and didn’t take too kindly to what I wrote;"

I didn't read Anthony's blog but there must be something in there that ****ed off Porte. But Anthony was doing his job.

And it goes back to the point. Journalists, fans etc are going to crticise riders. It's part of the game. It's the riders true strength which determines how they take it. Sportspeople no matter who they are, no matter how good they are, are going to be criticised every now and then. If you can't take the criticism you shouldn't be taking part as you're not mentally tough enough.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Sorry for my angry rant, but the people at Cycling Central really **** me off and this pushed me over the edge.

 

[Sasquatch]

Sorry for my angry rant, but the people at Cycling Central really **** me off and this pushed me over the edge.

That's okay Richie!

 

[function]

RP: “Oh, isn’t it!” he says, chortling at the silliness of venturing there in the first place, ill-founded criticism and vitriol being par for the course on Internet forums

Just to let you know Richie, you suddenly riding the giro and also planning to do the tour is quite odd. Is riding the giro going to help you get down to a good race weight and let your health improve after 3 months or illness? It will only make the illness worse and why didn't the giro help you get down to a good race weight last year

Ill founded? Your previous posts suggest that you do not have racing experience and you're critiquing his racing schedule.

Internet forums deserve their reputation.

 

[euanli]

well the giro certainly isn't a three week luxury holiday

 

[theswordsman]

Take a look around The Clinic and the "No Way Is..." threads that pop up after any decent performance. A lot of forum members think that every guy in the peloton is a cheater, so if a guy happens to be innocent, to him a place where people sit around maligning him is an evil place. Real people can have allergies, or stomach problems, especially if they compete hard every day and travel, but here any pro cyclist that dares to mention such a thing will immediately be held suspect by someone.

For me the worst is that people claim "to know" bad things about riders without even a lick of evidence, or playing connect the dots with a couple of things and taking a big long jump to a conclusion.

There was a guy here a couple of years ago who said the whole Contador on the beach story was made up. The forum member had been to some site that analyzes climbs, and said that he knew for a fact that the story wasn't true, and that everyone was liars. I took the time to research old articles, and started a thread showing how good of race condition Alberto had been prior to the time off, with results, and quotes about him taking the bike along to the beach. There was an article from the day of or after he got the call. Macarena had brought along the hotel receipt for the five days to show to the (I believe) Marca journo. The whole vacation was only meant to be a week to start with, because that's all the vacation time she gets from her job. So the facts of the story really didn't stretch the imagination much, but a forum member didn't bother to check them, and instead started dragging Contador and others involved through the mud in a conspiracy theory.

Some have noticed that I don't interact the same as a lot of others. I've gotten some pretty nasty reactions in the past for something as innocent as posting a link to a Contador interview or press release. I once shocked Polish by replying to a post, and got the response tha he thought he was on my ignore list (meaning he was free to say whatever he wanted behind my back with no fear of retribution), and said "Don't go in the Clinic!).

I'll come here, read through a new interesting thread, post my views, and then stay the heck away for ten pages. I apologize to those of you who have kind words, or tried to engage in civil discussions about something, but I'm unemployed and suffering from depression, and prefer to miss a few positive chances that read some of the vile trash that has followed me, like when I try to post facts and quotes to the Contador thread, or articles with actual details of Schleck & O'Grady's night out during the Vuelta. I've had people here post directly behind everything I posted, following me around to add something negative so that people couldn't read my thread with an open mind.

There are a few positive threads about riders in the race section, but there will always be people jumping in to sling a bit of mud. Did anyone bother to try to identify the comments Porte was talking about?

Neither he nor Tan, a journo I'm not particularly fond of, said that people here don't have the right to discuss things. They agreed that their own lives would be a happier place if they don't come here and read them. I know some people behave as if this is a closed chat room, but in real life, every post here is up for grabs in a Google search within five minutes. So things that you say against people in the sport will come up under searches done by their family, friends, future employers, people researching papers, or whatever.

There are "truths" that only exist in, and are perpetuated, in places like forums. A few months ago, people used as "evidence" that Contador had refused to give a DNA sample years ago. I did a Google News search for the time period, and saw that he had been testifying in a court room for ten or fifteen minutes, was asked if he'd be willing if asked, initially declined, then a few minutes later, agreed. That's from multiple sources, reporting at the time from inside the court room. That's fact - real life. Every time something different has been said here was wrong. Period. But there's no accountability.

I've learned a lot here. But if I was a rider, or had anything to do with the sport, this is one of the last places I'd come, especially after I'd put in a good performance. Do you think Gilbert could look around here and consider it a positive experience? Imagine you're him, and go to his "There's no way" thread and read every item as if they were strangers in a bar, talking about you. Would you talk to these people, or ever go near the bar again?

 

[Sasquatch]

For me the worst is that people claim "to know" bad things about riders without even a lick of evidence, or playing connect the dots with a couple of things and taking a big long jump to a conclusion.

I agree with your post in general and you are spot on that it's not a nice place for cyclists to read. But at the end of the day if it's going to affect them mentally they shouldn't read it and if they know it's going to affect them they shouldn't open a link, even if it does come from google. As soon as they see Cyclingnews forums they shouldn't click the link.

I just wanted to try and make you realise the above paragrath you wrote.

People who claim to know things about certain riders may be right. But most doping cases are legal issues to this day and if you are posting stuff that isn't supposed to be posted as evidence to this fact then you can get yourself into the **** by the authorities. So that's why people who claim to know things won't post as to why they know. I'm one of them. I know things about a few certain riders as I have contacts deep within the sport but as some cases are current I can't comment on them and give proof to this fact. So in summmary that's why people don't post the evidence. Hope that helps.

 

[Ferminal]

The idea that comments of someone posting on the blogosphere can be immediately dismissed, is a fallacy. I do not know what it is about some cycling "journalists", that seem to be extremely resistant to the idea that someone on twitter, the forum or a blog can actually form worthwhile comments and opinion. Being published on a major news site or magazine doesn't make your argument any more convincing, it just makes you a paid journalist.

Go look at any number of the Giro threads, the quality of discussion (if you take the top portion of posts) and commentary in those is better than what you will find on Cycling Central (or any news site), I doubt even Tan would be foolish enough to suggest otherwise. The difference with a forum is that there is very little quality control. For anyone familiar with the internet, they would know that the blogosphere attracts all comments, regardless of their quality. Most people are able to easily recognise a poor quality comment, but others, like Tan, use it to generalise an entire segment of the population.

Personally I will take information in all of its forms, and make my own judgements about its quality. I will add it to my individual thinking based on my assessment of its quality, not predetermined generalisations that anything posted on social media has to be bad, and everything posted in peer-reviewed journals has to be good.

People like Tan, and especially his Cycling Central colleague Tomalaris could benefit immensely from reading a wider array of views on cycling, without being dismissive of them in regards to their origin.

Tan's "blogging" on Cycling Central is no different to people sharing their opinion here. Tan's opinions are very much up for debate (none more so than his most recent one), and are by no means the most reasonable arguments just because they are posted officially on a major news site. There are dozens of people here who could contest Tan's assertions and provide counter arguments. That is the beauty of social media, the ease to which information can be exchanged. I have no idea why they want to be dismissive of it when information sharing and discussion will improve everyone, including journalists.

From the point of view of the athletes - forums are no different to what is posted in the printed media, except Anonymous is a lot more likely to "pull the trigger" as such. Neither journalists nor posters understand exactly what is going on with each cyclist, journalists are still speculating but have less margin for error.

I don't really see why cyclists need to come here, as they have complete information, they have nothing to gain. I don't know why any athletes look for their name in the media (print or otherwise) - at the end of the day it's only praise or criticism which is largely insignificant, as the individuals know their game far better than any commentator. "Stay away from the CN forum" can apply to every other form of cycling media too.

 

[Kwibus]

Richie really shouldn't read these forums. No riders should imo.

Unless they got a thick skin, but those people usually don't read these forums as they don't care about other peoples opinion about them.

Internet forums usually lack nuance and have a lot of ' in your face ' comments. Allthough there are quite a few people here that certainly have nuance and have solid posts with solid critism. There is also quite a lot of sh*t on this forum though.

edit: Talking about great posters, Swordsman is one. So civilised, which is a rare thing these days.
Swordsman is right about checking facts before judging someone, but I'm afraid that's something from the past. Even newspapers write down stuff without checking facts. I don't think you can expect the same from some random people that like cycling and post on this forum. I do encourage you(swordsman) to keep on doing it. Just keep in mind this is a forum and not a newspaper.

 

[greenedge]

Sorry for my angry rant, but the people at Cycling Central really **** me off and this pushed me over the edge.

So you don't like Tomalaris??? Or the forum users??? Porte we all love you. Hey he might have read how i said he was a good rider!

 

[auscyclefan94]

The idea that comments of someone posting on the blogosphere can be immediately dismissed, is a fallacy. I do not know what it is about some cycling "journalists", that seem to be extremely resistant to the idea that someone on twitter, the forum or a blog can actually form worthwhile comments and opinion. Being published on a major news site or magazine doesn't make your argument any more convincing, it just makes you a paid journalist.

Go look at any number of the Giro threads, the quality of discussion (if you take the top portion of posts) and commentary in those is better than what you will find on Cycling Central (or any news site), I doubt even Tan would be foolish enough to suggest otherwise. The difference with a forum is that there is very little quality control. For anyone familiar with the internet, they would know that the blogosphere attracts all comments, regardless of their quality. Most people are able to easily recognise a poor quality comment, but others, like Tan, use it to generalise an entire segment of the population.
Personally I will take information in all of its forms, and make my own judgements about its quality. I will add it to my individual thinking based on my assessment of its quality, not predetermined generalisations that anything posted on social media has to be bad, and everything posted in peer-reviewed journals has to be good.

People like Tan, and especially his Cycling Central colleague Tomalaris could benefit immensely from reading a wider array of views on cycling, without being dismissive of them in regards to their origin.

Tan's "blogging" on Cycling Central is no different to people sharing their opinion here. Tan's opinions are very much up for debate (none more so than his most recent one), and are by no means the most reasonable arguments just because they are posted officially on a major news site. There are dozens of people here who could contest Tan's assertions and provide counter arguments. That is the beauty of social media, the ease to which information can be exchanged. I have no idea why they want to be dismissive of it when information sharing and discussion will improve everyone, including journalists.

From the point of view of the athletes - forums are no different to what is posted in the printed media, except Anonymous is a lot more likely to "pull the trigger" as such. Neither journalists nor posters understand exactly what is going on with each cyclist, journalists are still speculating but have less margin for error.

I don't really see why cyclists need to come here, as they have complete information, they have nothing to gain. I don't know why any athletes look for their name in the media (print or otherwise) - at the end of the day it's only praise or criticism which is largely insignificant, as the individuals know their game far better than any commentator. "Stay away from the CN forum" can apply to every other form of cycling media too.

Well said.

Ill founded? Your previous posts suggest that you do not have racing experience and you're critiquing his racing schedule.

Internet forums deserve their reputation

So you are suggesting that a fan is never right when critiquing an aspect of a professional riders racingstyle, training, scheduling etc.?

This comment proves my point. I am allowed to have my opinion, You are and Anthony tan is. But stereotyping this forum as not having a clue about cycling and just being merely an 'evil place' is a naive and an incorrect statement. There are a lot of posters on this forum who have vast knowledge about this sport (generally more than I do). That doesn't mean that those posters don't contribute to thread such as "No way rider x is clean"? I don't like those types of threads but if there isn't such criticism of riders histories, actions and words then this sport will never gain integrity. The bold part from Ferminal's post sums up my contention perfectly

By criticising this forum and the posters in it, you are merely calling fans of this sport, idiots. Without the fans you don't have a sport. tbh, I would say that a lot of posters have better knowledge of cycling better than Anthony Tan. Again, if you have a hatred for this forum and what it is about, then DON'T post.

There are a few positive threads about riders in the race section, but there will always be people jumping in to sling a bit of mud. Did anyone bother to try to identify the comments Porte was talking about?

Neither he nor Tan, a journo I'm not particularly fond of, said that people here don't have the right to discuss things. They agreed that their own lives would be a happier place if they don't come here and read them. I know some people behave as if this is a closed chat room, but in real life, every post here is up for grabs in a Google search within five minutes. So things that you say against people in the sport will come up under searches done by their family, friends, future employers, people researching papers, or whatever.

And those family members who read those things should take those comments as just people on the outside making an observation. Doesn't mean it is right. Can I ask why do you come on the forum if you have such a negative outlook on the forum and it's posters?

 

[Mellow Velo]

Considering the way some riders get verbalized around here, I reckon Richie P gets treated pretty well. Especially when evaluating his potential, after breaking into the top tier as a relative unknown, last season.

Forums deal in opinion diversity and extremes. The ideal environment for fertile debate is a balance of positive, negative and intermediate viewpoints. Anyone looking for pleasant accord should steer well clear.

However, with personal comments it is human nature to focus on the negative.
If Richie, or any rider wants to find it, then they have come to the right place.
If they cannot weigh up the balance, then the only reason to spend time here, would be to indulge masochistic tendencies...............Cyclists, masochists?

If Richie could look beyond the negative extremes, he might discover he has a fair number of supporters, here.

As for Mr Tan.
Not only does he appear to be smug and self-serving, but a mind reader, too.

A journo dealing in a minority sport, writing something inflammatory and firing it in the direction of a place where the sport is anything but a minority.
Nothing new there.

 

[Sasquatch]

Considering the way some riders get verbalized around here, I reckon Richie P gets treated pretty well. Especially when evaluating his potential, after breaking into the top tier as a relative unknown, last season.

Forums deal in opinion diversity and extremes. The ideal environment for fertile debate is a balance of positive, negative and intermediate viewpoints. Anyone looking for pleasant accord should steer well clear.

However, with personal comments it is human nature to focus on the negative.
If Richie, or any rider wants to find it, then they have come to the right place.
If they cannot weigh up the balance, then the only reason to spend time here, would be to indulge masochistic tendencies...............Cyclists, masochists?

If Richie could look beyond the negative extremes, he might discover he has a fair number of supporters, here.

As for Mr Tan.
Not only does he appear to be smug and self-serving, but a mind reader, too.

A journo dealing in a minority sport, writing something inflammatory and firing it in the direction of a place where the sport is anything but a minority.
Nothing new there.

Yep. Richie doesn't get much crap around here at all. It's all been tame IMO - particularly looking through that thread again.

 

[maltiv]

If I were a professional rider I'd probably lurk around here too. Too much spare time and too tempting to check in once in a while. I don't know about you but I would admittedly also be very annoyed if people wrongfully accused me in the clinic.

 

[L'arriviste]

The idea that comments of someone posting on the blogosphere can be immediately dismissed, is a fallacy. I do not know what it is about some cycling "journalists", that seem to be extremely resistant to the idea that someone on twitter, the forum or a blog can actually form worthwhile comments and opinion. Being published on a major news site or magazine doesn't make your argument any more convincing, it just makes you a paid journalist.

Go look at any number of the Giro threads, the quality of discussion (if you take the top portion of posts) and commentary in those is better than what you will find on Cycling Central (or any news site), I doubt even Tan would be foolish enough to suggest otherwise. The difference with a forum is that there is very little quality control. For anyone familiar with the internet, they would know that the blogosphere attracts all comments, regardless of their quality. Most people are able to easily recognise a poor quality comment, but others, like Tan, use it to generalise an entire segment of the population.

Personally I will take information in all of its forms, and make my own judgements about its quality. I will add it to my individual thinking based on my assessment of its quality, not predetermined generalisations that anything posted on social media has to be bad, and everything posted in peer-reviewed journals has to be good.

....

+100. Great post, Ferminal. And this could apply to any sort of journalism, not just cycling.

People like Tan are on the edge. Clinging on to their press passes and churning out mediocrity. I don't think I've ever read a single piece of his but I don't feel at a loss.

Journalism is dead. Long live commentary. We already knew how to discern between offers thanks to the Cold War consumer boom. Now the Internet teaches users do the same with different information sources. We sift and we mull and we aggregate until we establish our truth as a quorum of viewpoints.

In that landscape, Tan is just one of thousands. And at anytime we can choose to ignore him. For a schleppy hack, that's a terrible fate.

 

[Jamsque]

This is an evil place, and Richie Porte shouldn't come here. I think Tan got it spot on.

 

[Sasquatch]

This is an evil place, and Richie Porte shouldn't come here. I think Tan got it spot on.

Porte shouldn't come here...yes.........but this is not an evil place. Evil is a nasty word!

 

[Kwibus]

If I were a professional rider I'd probably lurk around here too. Too much spare time and too tempting to check in once in a while. I don't know about you but I would admittedly also be very annoyed if people wrongfully accused me in the clinic.

Oh wow that would seriously p*ss me off indeed. I guess that must be one of the biggest frustation for every rider that rides clean. Atleast half of the people do not believe them.

 

[biopass]

Just to let you know Richie, you suddenly riding the giro and also planning to do the tour is quite odd. Is riding the giro going to help you get down to a good race weight and let your health improve after 3 months or illness? It will only make the illness worse and why didn't the giro help you get down to a good race weight last year?

I think Riis and McGee are trying to strengthen his character. From the interview, his mind sounds much younger than his age, especially with the part where he is critisicing this forum.

According to Portes teammate, danish climber Chris Anker, who recently the climbers jersey in Romandie, the final week in the tour is the worst because your body is so tired its like having a mayor flu. Yet theres no softpedalling, you just have to dig deep, find the resources and do the work for the yellow jersey. If Porte wants to be a GT contender, he has to learn that. Whatever illness comes along, he still have to make the results. Because if hes ever going to be a GT contender, it will be the same.

 

[trekbikes]

Some of the things said on forums about riders in any other arena would be considered liable, especially regarding the use of doping. Also more often than not the opinions expressed and the conclusions drawn in internet forums are based upon limited information.
I remember one such example where a rider was criticised for being dropped in a race, questions were raised about his motivation, his training and also how his previous performances were obtained in relation to that particular one! The real reason for him being dropped was he had damaged a nerve in his back while riding on the front over cobbles and was in pain and unable to transfer power through his lower back!
So please while criticism can sometimes be fair and justified what is seen in the cycling press and on TV doesn't tell the entire story. People really need to be careful with the comments they make especially regarding the situation of accusing riders of doping.
However having said all that I do think its a good thing to see passionate debates about cycling and the problems within the sport.