Training volume

[MMMMMMMMM]

I was wondering, how much do you guys cat 3,2, or 1 train in preparation for your racing season?

During my buildup for the racing season i do 2 months of base training, riding around 16 - 18 hours a week. mainly 3 hours a day during week days and saturday and 4 hours on sunday, with one rest day.

two months before the start of the races I decrease the volume to around 14 hours (sometimes less in case of races during the weekends).

Thank you for sharing

 

[DirtyWorks]

What purpose does all that pre-season volume serve? How does it develop more watts?

This is a controversial question, and I'm not 'right.' It's just that all that volume never worked for me.

 

[JayKosta]

It all depends on how quickly you recover from previous training.

HArd training without adequate recovery can do more harm than good.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[MMMMMMMMM]

What purpose does all that pre-season volume serve? How does it develop more watts?

This is a controversial question, and I'm not 'right.' It's just that all that volume never worked for me.

In short it allows you to build your aerobic engine without exhausting yourself. Furthermore it allows you to log a lot of miles into your legs which renders your entire system more... efficient (again without exhausting yourself)
I tried the following and it worked fine with me: at the beginning of the winter base training and in a very controlled environment i.e on the trainer, I pull 50x21 at a fixed RPM in order to stay in zone 2. At the end of the period, i can easily pull two more gears and stay in zone 2. So it does pay-off.

that doesn't mean that i don't enjoy 1 or 2 sprinting sessions per week.

 

[DirtyWorks]

In short it allows you to build your aerobic engine without exhausting yourself. Furthermore it allows you to log a lot of miles into your legs which renders your entire system more... efficient (again without exhausting yourself)
I tried the following and it worked fine with me: at the beginning of the winter base training and in a very controlled environment i.e on the trainer, I pull 50x21 at a fixed RPM in order to stay in zone 2. At the end of the period, i can easily pull two more gears and stay in zone 2. So it does pay-off.

that doesn't mean that i don't enjoy 1 or 2 sprinting sessions per week.

Does anyone win a race in zone 2? IMHO, this kind of training is a vestige of old-school gross hours in the saddle.

This crackpot's view is that your training should be raising the racing failure point, not zone 2 efficiency. This challenge to almost religious beliefs about training can be easily savaged by all kinds of buzzword science. Like I said earlier, I'm not 'right.' I just know that what you described did NOT work for me. And I can't be the only one.

 

[Michele]

3 hours a day is quiet a lot, I wish I had your free time!

Anyway, as JayKosta and DirtyWorks said, you do need the right recovery (Im not an expert but doing 3 hrs a day sounds a bit excessive for a no-elite cyclist) and your training schedule might not suit everyone.

If I was free to have as many hrs as possible, probably Id do 2 long trainings (5 rs?) each week mixed with recovery rides etc.

In my case, I cant have more than 2 hrs a day and anyway usually till early January I dont do more than 3-4 rides a week and then start increasing the rides (should start sooner or later).

 

[MMMMMMMMM]

But how do you become an elite cyclist unless you train like one? I have been increasing my training volume and intensity for the past 3 seasons. So 16-18 hours a week do not leave me exhausted.

My type of work allows to train as much as I want, whenever I want.

 

[usedtobefast]

But how do you become an elite cyclist unless you train like one? I have been increasing my training volume and intensity for the past 3 seasons. So 16-18 hours a week do not leave me exhausted.

My type of work allows to train as much as I want, whenever I want.

i don't think your volume it out of line. you seem to have it working well for you.
and you can't get better if you don't train like the better riders do.

 

[JayKosta]

You said that you have 1 rest day per week - that seems ok if the previous day is 'hard training' with perhaps hills, intervals, TT, etc.
Then that hard day & following rest day enables your muscles & endurance to become better.

If the prior day is long 'easy' zone 2 riding that exhausts your 'fuel supply', then the rest day is just a re-fuel day (not a build new strength day).

After the base-building stage, you should be able to do hard training - and the hard training sessions and the following rest/recovery sessions is what will give improvement.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[DirtyWorks]

But how do you become an elite cyclist unless you train like one?

I'm trying to explain to you that becoming an elite cyclist probably isn't going to happen like that. #1 is if you were gifted with enormous oxygen carrying capabilities. #2 is physical strength in the muscles used for cycling. Somewhere in between those two you'll develop enough efficiency to do well nationally. That is a very simple explanation.

The idea is the huge volume probably isn't going to do it.

A slightly different way to look at it is, what is the average length of a race for you? In the U.S. it's about an hour as most road racing is criteriums with time trials and cyclocross all at an hour or less. Mountain bikers maybe two hours. How does tons of volume meaningfully improve the 60 minute event? My position is it doesn't. Again, I'm not right. I just know volume didn't work for me and others.

International success is an entirely different deal. I suggest you check 'The Clinic' threads.

 

[Michele]

Few days I go I did my annual sport medical check up (not sure how you guys spell it in english) and I was talking with this (un)famous doctor (he worked closely with a famous 40 years old pro who just came back from a 2 years suspension).

While chatting we ended up talking about differences between amateurs (masters/etc) and U23/Elite guys and he'd say that even if you train like an U23/Elite you wont have the same performances cause you have a job that more or less will take many energies from you (and not allow a proper recovery).

@Dirtyworks; probably 1 or 2 weeks ago I was reading an interesting article of Couggan about how to go into the "next level" and to make a long story short, he said that you should do at least 2 (or better 3) very long rides of 5 hours each month, even if you race just criteriums/circuit races.
Personally I agree cause even during last year, when I didnt have chance to do any long trainings I wasnt feeling as strong as the start of the season (when I had more chances to do some long rides).
Wherever I did 1 or 2 long rides during a month, I could feel the differences at races.

 

[DirtyWorks]

@Dirtyworks; probably 1 or 2 weeks ago I was reading an interesting article of Couggan about how to go into the "next level"

Link?

If the goal on your long ride is to go very hard all the way through and not blow up, then I could see that helping. I think the recovery will be much longer than race-simulating training and therefore slow adaptive change. I know from experience the variety helps.

The original poster is grinding away at zone 2 and somehow this is supposed to translate to race benefits. IMHO, this is a vestige of the old-style pure volume training that deserves to die.

I'm challenging the idea that less intensity than simulating racing is somehow beneficial, recovery spin excepted.

 

[will10]

Link?

If the goal on your long ride is to go very hard all the way through and not blow up, then I could see that helping. I think the recovery will be much longer than race-simulating training and therefore slow adaptive change. I know from experience the variety helps.

The original poster is grinding away at zone 2 and somehow this is supposed to translate to race benefits. IMHO, this is a vestige of the old-style pure volume training that deserves to die.

I'm challenging the idea that less intensity than simulating racing is somehow beneficial, recovery spin excepted.

I'd be impressed if you can spend 16-18hrs a week training at threshold. If you're time limited (<8hrs/wk) then time spent in zone 2 may well be better spent at higher intensities. If you have the luxury of 15hrs+/wk then you can't spend it all in zone 4 or above, it's a trade-off.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I'd be impressed if you can spend 16-18hrs a week training at threshold. If you're time limited (<8hrs/wk) then time spent in zone 2 may well be better spent at higher intensities. If you have the luxury of 15hrs+/wk then you can't spend it all in zone 4 or above, it's a trade-off.

Where did I say I spent 16-18hrs a week near threshold? I can't and don't and I'm not recommending it. In fact, I'm suggesting that for me, and probably others, the 8hr or less training schedule simulating racing is superior. I have test results that show the increase in Watts over months of training to prove it.

More is not better in this case. Just because one may have lots of hours/week to devote to cycling doesn't mean they should waste their time practicing in zone 2. Practicing in zone 2 makes you efficient in zone 2. I will ask again, what bike race event involves being in zone 2 for a good result?

It may be better mentally for some to do longer rides. Every body is different. Unless they are simulating racing over their longer rides it is likely they will not have greater Watts output for racing. If they are simulating racing over/in a long ride, recovery will take longer. Maybe that's the trade-off you were referencing?

 

[Nederick]

In my view, for a prolonged athletic career, the approach of logging quantity at comfortable effort is the way to go. Speed work/Threshold capacity is built on and limited by the amount of strength work you have done, which in turn is limited by your base. Yes, you can hit higher peaks of performance quickly, but without the base, this cannot be sustained.

Yes, I'm a Lydiard fan. Why? Because the performances of many of his athletes from decades ago still stack up today. Do I think this is the only way? No. Further research into physiology helps refine the periodisation of training intensities and recoveries.

Footnote, as you point out, doesn't work for everyone. Every individual is an experiment of one.

Footnote 2, in my various returns to cycling, the best I ever was came from a period of about 6 months of volume focus (note this was not exclusively easy effort, but the bulk was). From this point on, I'd never felt as strong and could handle a significant increase in strength and high intensity riding and was easily moving up the pecking order amongst my local peers.

 

[The Cobra]

Link?

If the goal on your long ride is to go very hard all the way through and not blow up, then I could see that helping. I think the recovery will be much longer than race-simulating training and therefore slow adaptive change. I know from experience the variety helps.

The original poster is grinding away at zone 2 and somehow this is supposed to translate to race benefits. IMHO, this is a vestige of the old-style pure volume training that deserves to die.

I'm challenging the idea that less intensity than simulating racing is somehow beneficial, recovery spin excepted.

I think he's referring to this article: http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Articles/the_next_level.pdf

Seems like a good article but you'd have to be at a pretty high level already to follow that regime without burning out.

 

[will10]

Where did I say I spent 16-18hrs a week near threshold? I can't and don't and I'm not recommending it. In fact, I'm suggesting that for me, and probably others, the 8hr or less training schedule simulating racing is superior. I have test results that show the increase in Watts over months of training to prove it.

More is not better in this case. Just because one may have lots of hours/week to devote to cycling doesn't mean they should waste their time practicing in zone 2. Practicing in zone 2 makes you efficient in zone 2. I will ask again, what bike race event involves being in zone 2 for a good result?

It may be better mentally for some to do longer rides. Every body is different. Unless they are simulating racing over their longer rides it is likely they will not have greater Watts output for racing. If they are simulating racing over/in a long ride, recovery will take longer. Maybe that's the trade-off you were referencing?

 

[Michele]

Link?

It wasnt easy to find it but got it.

http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Articles/the_next_level.pdf

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I will ask again, what bike race event involves being in zone 2 for a good result?

Not commenting on what training is / isn't best but there are plenty of events where one would be at this level to perform well, such as Audax, Ironman bike legs and various ultra endurance ride events.

Of course it might depend on what you define "zone 2" to be. For me it means quality endurance pace but not as hard as tempo riding, with a significant proportion of energy demand still provided by fat metabolism.

 

[MMMMMMMMM]

Interesting conversation, however please note that i am only referring to the winter base training, which starts 1 month after the end of the season and ends 3 months before the next racing season. During the last 3 months before the racing season, the training changes (dirty work you didn't think I would train at zone 2 all year round, did you??) intensity is introduced so are workouts at sub threshold, threshold and MAP.

 

[stainlessguy1]

history

Interesting conversation, however please note that i am only referring to the winter base training, which starts 1 month after the end of the season and ends 3 months before the next racing season. During the last 3 months before the racing season, the training changes (dirty work you didn't think I would train at zone 2 all year round, did you??) intensity is introduced so are workouts at sub threshold, threshold and MAP.

Mr. MMMMMMMMMM , a lot of posters wrote in to answer some of your questions and they all have good points based on experience.
I just would like to add , what about your history. You are in lebanon , you were born in 82 so your what 30 years old . Did you ever race a bike or go thru racing as a junior . When did you start bike riding / racing? .
Do you live in lebanon , as in lebanon , or lebanon USA ( as i think there is a place called lebanon , cant remember) .
All of these things matter as to your available resources road types,etc, to where and under what conditions you train.
If you want people to help you on these forums , you should give some details.
If you want to become elite then you have to start with your past, and figure also what type of person or body type you have including what your inner workings are. That was already posted on page one by dirty works , example , VO2max etc.
There are no short cuts to elite status . It takes time. Reading something about someone elses training technique might work well for that athlete but it needs to be tailored to your specific body and its threshold of capabilities.

I hope this helps .

 

[oldborn]

Great stuff here. I think bigger base of piramide bigger higher peak will be possible, I am not saying that under distance for distance is bad, only it would works for us amateurs. I have chance to swim two lanes next to Athens silver medalist on 50m freestyle (just for compare things) and he is swimming in same lane with 51 st place dude on 10km swimming world champions.
Distances are similar, maybe that long distance swimmer doing about 15km per day regular and sprinter are doing no less than 10km, and he is 50m sprinter only. What distance and such a huge training volume has to do with his discipline, when 50m last 21 or so seconds? I know answer
That is just my 55 cent.

 

[Louison]

I find this discussion quite interesting as my wife bought me the book "The Time Crunched Cyclist" and it discusses the need for big miles in the off-season and who really needs it. Because of my teaching job my off-season mileage is limited so I am going to try this plan. I suggest you guys read it.

 

[BroDeal]

I find this discussion quite interesting as my wife bought me the book "The Time Crunched Cyclist" and it discusses the need for big miles in the off-season and who really needs it. Because of my teaching job my off-season mileage is limited so I am going to try this plan. I suggest you guys read it.

For god's sake don't buy anything by Chris Carmichael. Floyd Landis said it best when he said that Carmischael was barely even a coach. There are lots of much better books than the drek from Carmichael. Carmichael is like the Bicylcing magazine of coaches, i.e. low grade crap for the masses.

 

[eljimberino]

Don't see how 2hr interval training is going to prepare you for 150km+ touring or racing days.