Trolls in "The Clinic"...

[Berzin]

I was told via pm by a moderator to take this to the appropriate section, so I took the liberty of making this public for all to see.

My issue is the trolls infecting the Clinic can be controlled and the forum will be a much better place for it with minimal effort expended by the mods.

Every single thread in the Clinic is patrolled by the same 3-4 trolls who've been at it for years, either under different usernames or as the same old posters. Their MO never varies, so it's not that difficult to ascertain who they are.

Yet their inanity somehow passes as harmless humor or is explained away as some sort of protection of free speech.

Free speech wasn't meant to protect this type of activity and it ruins every discussion in the Clinic.

I believe there's a better way. I don't understand what purpose they serve. It dumbs down the forum and makes following a serious discussion incredibly frustrating.

There is a better way to deal with the situation. It's not like these people serve a contrarian viewpoint as it pertains to the facts. They have an agenda that is transparent that is obvious from what they write and how they write it.

Why not, for the sake of the forum, just get rid of these fools who ruin every thread they post on and delete them into oblivion?

Believe me, after a while they'll take their nonsense somewhere else and maybe we can finally be free of them.

I know the response I'm going to get-if you don't like it don't read the forum or put the trolls on ignore. Another one-you're taking this all too seriously.

There is nothing wrong with having standards, and this is all I'm asking for.

 

[ChrisE]

I find it pretty confusing/amusing when people with dopers in their avatar and as their username call out trolls in the clinic.

 

[pedaling squares]

No, there is nothing wrong with having expectations or with asking questions. I think there are differing opinions on what is a 'troll', and which of the 'trolls' disrupts the forum instead of being an annoyance to those who don't like their posts.

In my opinion, and I don't intend to represent anyone but myself here, a troll is not a troll simply because people point to them and yell "Troll!" Nor is a troll anyone who holds an opposing view than the general population of the forum. And I am not accusing Berzin of making these claims.

It is important to keep in mind that many valuable and informative members of this forum have on many occasions engaged in tit-for-tat inflammatory posting, made fun of others' perspectives, and have even admitted to 'trolling' for responses from others. I've done some of these things myself.

I try to look at the totality of a member's activity. A member who contributes to the forum, but who occasionally initiates or reacts to personal arguments that are no more than mud-slinging, tends to get a lot of slack from me. This is usually handled by PM and the guy gets back on track. The other end of the pendulum is the member who joins the forum and on day 1 launches attacks upon people without debating ideas. If the member remains in attack mode without contributing to cycling threads, then I don't see any value added by their membership. It's the middle ground that causes the most hassle. What member X sees as trolling, member Y and mod Z might see as an attempt at a genuine argument. And too often, in my opinion anyway, people form opinions about a post based on who wrote it instead of upon content. Believe me, there are a couple of members who could write, "Hey I really enjoyed that TTT today, congrats to Pinotti and the rest of Team HTC" in the appropriate thread and the post would be reported.

The problem with 'getting rid of the fools' is that we have to be careful not to get rid of diverging opinions and sterilize the forum entirely. But Berzin does have a point and I caution those members who do not intend to contribute to threads or who fail to make the appropriate changes following a suspension that these actions will likely lead to more stringent responses from the mods.

It is also important to recognize that the forum is composed of 19,000+ members from numerous nations across the globe. It cannot ever be perfect and nobody is ever going to be completely satisfied with the way it is set up, who is participating, or how it is moderated. Be patient, enjoy what you like about it, and keep asking questions about the parts that leave you unsatisfied.

 

[Polish]

The thing about forum trolls is that they are so mean and impolite.
Angry too grrr. Does not help when they insult other members so much.
Thank you to the mods for helping out in this regard. Tempering.

(BTW berzin, little polish is a girl lol)

 

[Berzin]

(BTW berzin, little polish is a girl lol)

Correction made, Polish.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Yet their inanity somehow passes as harmless humor or is explained away as some sort of protection of free speech.

Free speech wasn't meant to protect this type of activity and it ruins every discussion in the Clinic.

There are several things that ruin discussion in the Clinic. And some of those have organically grown over time, are utterly intertwined, making them almost chicken and egg situations.

But I can't think of a single occasion where a mod has made that free speech argument ever, to protect or excuse anyone, troll or genuine poster. I can think of many an occasion where a mod has made the exact opposite case.

If anything, we actually keep pointing out to trolls and members alike that free speech doesn't apply to this site, but attitude does. Regardless where they come from. It is a privately owned site, and people agree to behave according to the site's guidelines by posting here. End of debate.

And we really don't say "just ignore" either. We say "report in private and ignore in public". Reports are evaluated by all mods.

What some find difficult to accept, it seems, if that we can come to different conclusions as the one(s) doing the reporting. Or that we accept only part of the argument made, but see other angles that the reporter(s) doesn't or disagrees with.

If we wanted an easy life, it would be very easy to do exactly what some insist is the obvious option. Yet it is exactly because we also, like yourselves, are as passionate about getting the the site in a state that invites debate, and healthy debate at that, that we are sticking with our own assessment, rather than be attracted by what is popular, but, in our eyes, not the whole story, or a welcome solution/direction.

We do take feedback on board, we do look at each report in detail. We don't always agree.

We are actually trying to figure out a way that makes room for the various attitudes in and to the Clinic, without making it an either/or.

Berzin, we kinda know where your coming from, but to be frank, I'd rather spend the hours I have on this site by looking at ways that solve the problem of different expectations and goals, yet keep everyone here who, in the mods eye, is not the troll they are being made out to be. To find better ways to let all people take away from the site what they came for, rather than address posts like this.

I do think you raise only genuinely held points that are worth addressing, and your frustration, and those of many others are pretty clear to see.

But the counter-frustration also exists, and is also genuinely held, and, to be frank, has valid angles too.

Believe it or not, we are actually trying to figure out a good way forwards that takes the valid angles of everyone into account, your included.

But your "obvious" solution is, in our eyes, neither obvious, nor a solution.

In general [addressing more what happens in the Clinic than your post:] there is far too much shoveled under trolling than is actually taking place, and some points are too often ignored as well, or automatically ignored if the person who raises it happens to be 'the obvious troll'.

Pedaling Squares addressed your other points.

 

[forty four]

No, there is nothing wrong with having expectations or with asking questions. I think there are differing opinions on what is a 'troll', and which of the 'trolls' disrupts the forum instead of being an annoyance to those who don't like their posts.

In my opinion, and I don't intend to represent anyone but myself here, a troll is not a troll simply because people point to them and yell "Troll!" Nor is a troll anyone who holds an opposing view than the general population of the forum. And I am not accusing Berzin of making these claims.

It is important to keep in mind that many valuable and informative members of this forum have on many occasions engaged in tit-for-tat inflammatory posting, made fun of others' perspectives, and have even admitted to 'trolling' for responses from others. I've done some of these things myself.

I try to look at the totality of a member's activity. A member who contributes to the forum, but who occasionally initiates or reacts to personal arguments that are no more than mud-slinging, tends to get a lot of slack from me. This is usually handled by PM and the guy gets back on track. The other end of the pendulum is the member who joins the forum and on day 1 launches attacks upon people without debating ideas. If the member remains in attack mode without contributing to cycling threads, then I don't see any value added by their membership. It's the middle ground that causes the most hassle. What member X sees as trolling, member Y and mod Z might see as an attempt at a genuine argument. And too often, in my opinion anyway, people form opinions about a post based on who wrote it instead of upon content. Believe me, there are a couple of members who could write, "Hey I really enjoyed that TTT today, congrats to Pinotti and the rest of Team HTC" in the appropriate thread and the post would be reported.

The problem with 'getting rid of the fools' is that we have to be careful not to get rid of diverging opinions and sterilize the forum entirely. But Berzin does have a point and I caution those members who do not intend to contribute to threads or who fail to make the appropriate changes following a suspension that these actions will likely lead to more stringent responses from the mods.

It is also important to recognize that the forum is composed of 19,000+ members from numerous nations across the globe. It cannot ever be perfect and nobody is ever going to be completely satisfied with the way it is set up, who is participating, or how it is moderated. Be patient, enjoy what you like about it, and keep asking questions about the parts that leave you unsatisfied.

true that well put fair enough i think.

 

[Berzin]

There is a specific type of trolling that I'm talking about.

Comments written that makes it clear the poster's intent is to ridicule and mock the authentic premise of said thread for the purpose of derailing it.

The intention seems pretty transparent to me, and the constant engaging with the same type of comments page after page makes it even more obvious.

These guys aren't attempting some type of covert operations that is so subtle it takes CIA intel to root them out. Yet when someone gets fed up and throws an insult their way, we get reprimanded.

I take responsibility for the insults I've hurled during my time here, but that's not the point. My question is, why give them a place to execute their agenda? Why does it have to be here?

 

[hughmoore]

Dont worry, once the Superbowl is over, all will be revealed!!!!




Hugh

 

[Cobblestoned]

So, berzin opens a troll-thread to complain about trolls (nonehaters in the clinic).

I will come back on you later, when stage is over. Easy thing, man.
Prepare yourself, it will be very ugly and you will think about yourself and the word "agenda" for a long time after that - all covered in tears.

Until I then finally waste my precious time with you, I hand you out a question to deal with:
Isn't there some anorexic c-list Hollywood celubu-wichs-template you could be blogging and dreaming about, instead of making a fool of yourself like this, dear hater ?

 

[MacRoadie]

So, berzin opens a troll-thread to complain about trolls (nonehaters in the clinic).

I will come back on you later, when stage is over. Easy thing, man.
Prepare yourself, it will be very ugly and you will think about yourself and the word "agenda" for a long time after that - all covered in tears.

Until I then finally waste my precious time with you, I hand you out a question to deal with:
Isn't there some anorexic c-list Hollywood celubu-wichs-template you could be blogging and dreaming about, instead of making a fool of yourself like this, dear hater ?

See Berzin, we need more constructive and contributive posts like this one here. A sound counter-argument specifically responding to the issues you raised in a clear, concise, and non-combative manner.

I have no idea where you get these ideas that posters interject dialog into threads that diverges from the subject matter at hand...

 

[Digger]

So, berzin opens a troll-thread to complain about trolls (nonehaters in the clinic).

I will come back on you later, when stage is over. Easy thing, man.
Prepare yourself, it will be very ugly and you will think about yourself and the word "agenda" for a long time after that - all covered in tears.

Until I then finally waste my precious time with you, I hand you out a question to deal with:
Isn't there some anorexic c-list Hollywood celubu-wichs-template you could be blogging and dreaming about, instead of making a fool of yourself like this, dear hater ?

Ah yes Cobblestoned, whose soul aim on this forum is to insult, insult and insult some more. Caustic doesn't even being to describe it.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

I find the 'trolling welcome' but not being allowed to call a troll for trolling to be bizarre in the extreme. Something is what it is - if you think someone is trolling then that is as much of a valid opinion as thinking that someone is being long-winded, pompous, that they are biased, that that they are not reading a post properly. And that is a necessary part of contextualising your response to them.

A sensible post gets a sensible reply, a troll gets short shrift.

A troll is a troll is a troll.

Stop insulting our intelligence.

 

[Anonymous]

Ah yes Cobblestoned, whose soul aim on this forum is to insult, insult and insult some more. Caustic doesn't even being to describe it.

The thing is that if a poster like that also contributes in other areas, then they have some redeeming value, and will be afforded more rope than someone like BPC who only disrupts. Cobblestoned actually contributes pretty good commentary outside of his other posts, so I don't have a problem with someone like him here. At least he is amusing to a certain extent.

 

[Stingray34]

I generally avoid responding to our resident trolls/comic relief. I find their posts increasingly bizzare and cryptic, like the ramblings of Gollum. From what I can gather, they think they're irreverent and detached and enjoy 'jamming' the thread. I really don't understand what they're talking about most of the time, so I don't bother reading them or finding any reason to respond.

Beyond their gadfly-like posts, I find them generally amiable, even kinda likable in their own way. I think they'd be OK to know in person.

I did have a 'conversation' with our court jester in the bin laden thread the other day. What can I say? Back in the day, the King's fool had to be sharp or he'd discover something that is - the excutioner's blade.

With our more austere demi-trolls, reading their posts and engaging with them is like eating vegetable lasagne and drinking decaf: why bother?

 

[Cobblestoned]

Hey, where is the threadopening troll now ?

He just showed up yesterday to derail a polish-thread, and then went off without answering my question.

I guess he is working on rebuilding or deleting his reputation, lol.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hey, where is the threadopening troll now ?

He just showed up yesterday to derail a polish-thread, and then went off without answering my question.

I guess he is working on rebuilding or deleting his reputation, lol.

Who are you talking about and what question did you ask? Instead of derailing this thread you could take it to your query to PMs?

 

[Cobblestoned]

Who are you talking about and what question did you ask? Instead of derailing this thread you could take it to your query to PMs?

This is not your party, dottore.

I know you like trolling and derailing, but I was talking to berzin.
That serious hatertroll with great reputation opened that thread to complain and discuss about trolls.

So why should we choose PM, dude.

Go for a ride now - pulling for berzin.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Hey, where is the threadopening troll now ?

He just showed up yesterday to derail a polish-thread, and then went off without answering my question.

I guess he is working on rebuilding or deleting his reputation, lol.

Dude you need to think before you post.

 

[Anonymous]

I am quoting this from a thread in the Clinic because all of this "don't call people trolls because it is against forum rules" is interesting in light of the admission presented here:

Well said Chris, its more of a entertainment value for your posts. 1 pro LA post draws several heated responses of how stupid the post was, how bad a person LA is, and the worlds biggest cheat and fraud to walk the face of the earth. And the whole time the pro LA poster is laughing ,because he doesn't really care.

Hey, I respect the admission because I respect honesty. What is however VERY apparent there is that this idea that "many of those guys are just expressing opinions you don't like and are not trolling" isn't quite as meritorious as it is presented to be. There are several people in that thread admitting that they don't care one second about whether or not Armstrong is guilty. They only care about winding up people who dislike Armstrong.

Now, the best advice to those getting wound up by their posts is to ignore them. The second best is to respond in kind. I choose the latter many times, and I do a pretty good job sometimes. It doesn't endear me to many people, but then again, I cannot count the number of nights I have tossed and turned in bed worrying about what other people think because I have never done it, and 0 isn't a number.

I am not trying to antagonize the mods here, I am merely pointing out that there are several people who get called trolls, and are then defended as only having counter opinions who are now admitting that they are merely posting things to incite a reaction and not to actually have a discussion because they all believe that Armstrong is guilty as hell, they just like to poke people who are a bit passionate about him getting what he deserves for it...you can call that whatever you like, but a rose by any other name...

 

[Polish]

I am not trying to antagonize the mods here, I am merely pointing out that there are several people who get called trolls, and are then defended as only having counter opinions who are not admitting that they are merely posting things to incite a reaction and not to actually have a discussion because they all believe that Armstrong is guilty as hell, they just like to poke people who are a bit passionate about him getting what he deserves for it...you can call that whatever you like, but a rose by any other name...

So when a fanboy pokes a hater - it is called troling.

And when a hater pokes a fanboy - it is called rational saving of children from the evils of doping sociopaths.

I do find that amusing, I really do.

BTW TFF, I am thinking of restarting a new Floyd Landis Press Conference Thread. There must be new details out there that are going ureported in The Clinic. Cal_joe may have some updates. Do us all a favor and stay away from the thread if you could. TIA.

 

[Anonymous]

So when a fanboy pokes a hater - it is called troling.

And when a hater pokes a fanboy - it is called rational saving of children from the evils of doping sociopaths.

I do find that amusing, I really do.

BTW TFF, I am thinking of restarting a new Floyd Landis Press Conference Thread. There must be new details out there that are going ureported in The Clinic. Cal_joe may have some updates. Do us all a favor and stay away from the thread if you could. TIA.

lol, I only poke back lol. I troll torlls lol. And I am good at it lol.

As for your new thread, its not cool to have a party and let me know you are having a party and then ask me not to come. That is a party that deserves crashing lol.

 

[Boeing]

I actually advise trolling here over all other forums cycling or not.

why not? there are so many self entitled grandstanding patriarchs of the board here playing morality police who are far too quick to remind new users of redundancy and tell each other how great they are,...we need the balance of the trolls

 

[Granville57]

I am quoting this from a thread in the Clinic because all of this "don't call people trolls because it is against forum rules" is interesting in light of the admission presented here:

Well said Chris, its more of a entertainment value for your posts. 1 pro LA post draws several heated responses of how stupid the post was, how bad a person LA is, and the worlds biggest cheat and fraud to walk the face of the earth. And the whole time the pro LA poster is laughing ,because he doesn't really care.

I am not trying to antagonize the mods here, I am merely pointing out that there are several people who get called trolls, and are then defended as only having counter opinions who are now admitting that they are merely posting things to incite a reaction and not to actually have a discussion...

I'd like to add one more example of the same, from the "Victims" thread:

What do you expect from me ?
Join you guys getting of on Lance ?

You expect me to argue that Lance is clean - just for some haters entertainment ?

Isn't that just another admission that no useful debate or discussion will ever be forthcoming?

The tolerance of this mystifies me.

 

[patricknd]

I actually advise trolling here over all other forums cycling or not.

why not? there are so many self entitled grandstanding patriarchs of the board here playing morality police who are far too quick to remind new users of redundancy and tell each other how great they are,...we need the balance of the trolls

i agree 100%. there is nothing more boring than a group that is in agreement.