Truth and Reconciliation Commission for pro cycling

[Maxiton]

Joe Papp, myself, and others here have followed Travis Tygart in suggesting a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for pro cycling. (Or maybe TT was following us?) This would be modeled on the process of the same name that followed Apartheid and minority white rule in South Africa.

Under a T&R Commission, as long as you come before it and tell the truth, you are not sanctioned. (Those who refuse to testify when called, on the other hand, or who stonewall the commission while testifying, are investigated and if found guilty, prosecuted.) The idea behind this is that by taking away the incentive to lie (fear of prosecution), you allow for a healthy clearing of the air and mutual forgiveness - thus, reconciliation.

(Apparently, this process has been used in many places, as a Google search reveals. We could probably use a few of these in the US, but I'm not holding my breath.)

The question is, could this work to clear up doping in pro cycling? If yes, how? If no, why not?

For a T&R process to be really effective in pro cycling, would a way have to be found to immunize those who come before it against criminal prosecution? How could that happen? If it couldn't happen, would there still be some point to a T&R commission in pro cycling?

Discuss.

 

[luckyboy]

I mean riders could come forward, confess, and then go back to doing what they were doing.

Anyway, it's not as if more people are getting caught or showing suspicious values, so a large percentage of the peloton can just say "I'm clean, I've got nothing to hide" and get on with it.

Unless you propose that every rider will be called and then investigated, which can't really be done can it? (Moral reasons, too expensive)

 

[hrotha]

I'd be up even for a general amnesty if I thought things would change afterwards.

 

[Big Doopie]

yeah, i think dickie pound also suggests it.

my concern, right now, there is nothing in place for afterwards.

as long as mcquaid and verdruggen head up uci, riders will fear that things are unfair and that they cannot speak out. as long as that exists doping takes over.

 

[ggusta]

Joe Papp, myself, and others here have followed Travis Tygart in suggesting a Truth and Reconciliation Commission for pro cycling. (Or maybe TT was following us?) This would be modeled on the process of the same name that followed Apartheid and minority white rule in South Africa.

Under a T&R Commission, as long as you come before it and tell the truth, you are not sanctioned. (Those who refuse to testify when called, on the other hand, or who stonewall the commission while testifying, are investigated and if found guilty, prosecuted.) The idea behind this is that by taking away the incentive to lie (fear of prosecution), you allow for a healthy clearing of the air and mutual forgiveness - thus, reconciliation.

(Apparently, this process has been used in many places, as a Google search reveals. We could probably use a few of these in the US, but I'm not holding my breath.)

The question is, could this work to clear up doping in pro cycling? If yes, how? If no, why not?

For a T&R process to be really effective in pro cycling, would a way have to be found to immunize those who come before it against criminal prosecution? How could that happen? If it couldn't happen, would there still be some point to a T&R commission in pro cycling?

Discuss.

I saw the thread title and just assumed this was going to be about Armstrong Kool-Aid drinkers accepting reality and just sort of giving them a warm welcome back to reality and telling them everything is going to be OK.

 

[Maxiton]

I saw the thread title and just assumed this was going to be about Armstrong Kool-Aid drinkers accepting reality and just sort of giving them a warm welcome back to reality and telling them everything is going to be OK.

Yeah, agreed, that would be nice, but not yet.

 

[ElChingon]

It could work but it could also fail. Imagine if first in line were all those in the current Conspiracy case and the Omerata followers toed the line, the 10 or so who testified would then get fried. Its basically what's going on so it could continue. I do see your angle though but if enough toe the line the truth gets lost.

 

[BroDeal]

I have supported the idea in the past, but I don't think it would work. The current riders cannot even find it in themselves to speak honestly about Armstrong after he was sanctioned. These guys will not come forward and admit their own malfeasance.

 

[DirtyWorks]

....
as long as mcquaid and verdruggen head up uci, riders will fear that things are unfair and that they cannot speak out. as long as that exists doping takes over.

That ^^^^^^^

Plus, the simple fact the IOC is "anti-doping controversy" vs. actually "anti-doping."

I don't want that to be understood as don't do it. I think it's generally a good idea. Just put Pat and Hein in jail first. If some Tailwind/CSE people qualify for jail time, then so much the better.

 

[Turner29]

I mean riders could come forward, confess, and then go back to doing what they were doing.

Sounds like the Baseball approach...

 

[the big ring]

I have supported the idea in the past, but I don't think it would work. The current riders cannot even find it in themselves to speak honestly about Armstrong after he was sanctioned. These guys will not come forward and admit their own malfeasance.

+1

the riders currently celebrating / appladuing LA's downfall are all looking clean enough that they don't need a T&RC.

Why would the rest admit to being LA-like?

I loved the idea, but the response from the peloton makes me think otherwise.

 

[CharacterFirst]

I have supported the idea in the past, but I don't think it would work. The current riders cannot even find it in themselves to speak honestly about Armstrong after he was sanctioned. These guys will not come forward and admit their own malfeasance.

I think they would, if they knew everyone was going to as well. What stops them is the fear of being exposed alone, don't you think?

 

[D-Queued]

yeah, i think dickie pound also suggests it.

my concern, right now, there is nothing in place for afterwards.

as long as mcquaid and verdruggen head up uci, riders will fear that things are unfair and that they cannot speak out. as long as that exists doping takes over.

Made today's (28 Aug) CN headline:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pound-calls-for-truth-and-reconciliation-for-cycling

All the same, I agree with others. It ain't gonna happen. Not unless the IOC forces it.

Dave.

 

[Maxiton]

Made today's (28 Aug) CN headline:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pound-calls-for-truth-and-reconciliation-for-cycling

All the same, I agree with others. It ain't gonna happen. Not unless the IOC forces it.

Dave.

Well there's a happy coincidence. Thanks for that.

"I think what they have to do at some point, it may be so bad, they're going to have to do a truth and reconciliation exercise and say 'let's get it all on the table so everyone knows how bad it was and let's now turn the corner and if anybody from now on is using any of these things they're out, period'. Until that happens and they acknowledge there has been a problem and the problem continues, there's almost no hope for a cure."

Truth be told, one thing has to happen before a "truth and reconciliation exercise" has any meaning, or any hope of success: the UCI has to be cleaned out. That's a prerequisite.

 

[Maxiton]

Kimmage: UCI needs root and branch surgery

Yet another happy coincidence. It's like a double rainbow.

 

[rhubroma]

I have supported the idea in the past, but I don't think it would work. The current riders cannot even find it in themselves to speak honestly about Armstrong after he was sanctioned. These guys will not come forward and admit their own malfeasance.

Another take is that they would come clean, but remain dirty. What I mean by that is that it seems that many an athlete simply has been weaned on doping all along, and thus can't believe themselves to be competitive without it and probably believes all his colleagues feel and behave the same way.

This is what is meant by doping culture in our sport. It has become so ensconced in the psychology of riders that it would truly take massive therapy to break it. If it even can be broken.

 

[Maxiton]

Another take is that they would come clean, but remain dirty. What I mean by that is that it seems that many an athlete simply has been weaned on doping all along, and thus can't believe themselves to be competitive without it and probably believes all his colleagues feel and behave the same way.

This is what is meant by doping culture in our sport. It has become so ensconced in the psychology of riders that it would truly take massive therapy to break it. If it even can be broken.

In addition to coerced openness ("truth and reconciliation"), forgiveness, education, and real, third-party testing - along with, of course, cleaning out the UCI - all of which would make a huge difference - you could also implement a lifetime ban for a first offense, and stiff penalties against the teams, managers, and owners, as well. Believe me, this culture of drugs and cheating can be broken.

 

[Benotti69]

In addition to coerced openness ("truth and reconciliation"), forgiveness, education, and real, third-party testing - along with, of course, cleaning out the UCI - all of which would make a huge difference - you could also implement a lifetime ban for a first offense, and stiff penalties against the teams, managers, and owners, as well. Believe me, this culture of drugs and cheating can be broken.

Yes.

Without the bolded a T&R would be useless.

The sport is still run by people who only know one way and that is with the use of pharmacueticals.

 

[AcademyCC]

Sorry can't see this one working. Only one rider we know of has spoken out against Armstrong. Omerta still rules the roost. Who would run the commission? the UCI? ha ha. Could you imagine Pat McQuaids response to 100-150 riders coming forward and saying they had doped? Actually I'd pay money to see that.

Best we can hope for is the UCI to be mortally wounded by the Armstrong evidence and to rebuild from wreckage

 

[Muriel]

Best we can hope for is the UCI to be mortally wounded by the Armstrong evidence and to rebuild from wreckage

I'd go along with that.

I don't like the thought of T&R being used as a means to avoid punishment, a get out of jail free card.

 

[hiero2]

It might be a good idea. I like the sound of it, but like others have stated, I have reservations.

1. There has to be a general consensus that there is an "after" for the idea to work.
2. If the UCI is part of the problem, this could be a major setback before you even started.
3. Judging by the responses from the current peloton, it seems omerta may be alive and well. If the number of riders cheating the doping systems is less than, say 10%, and most riders are relatively unaware of who is doping, then it could just be they don't want to answer the possibly controversial question. If more than 10% are cheating, I think it is almost inevitable that other riders will suspect or know. In which case, omerta is not dead.
4. If, on the other hand, they are following medical regimens on a regular basis that are very close to the envelope, they probably don't want to get snapped, and this is bad. This situation might not lead to honesty.

To tell you the truth, I am extremely disappointed in many of the rider's responses to the LA thing. I don't know if they just don't realize how much some clean air is needed, or what.

After all that I've said, one of the most important factors would be the attitude of the people in the race system itself. Joe would know some of those people, and I do not. How many DS's would be honestly supportive? How many in the peloton? They, more than anybody else, would have to believe in the system. Is that perhaps why they have responded poorly to the news about LA? They don't believe that the current system is effective? That has been the comment in more than one response in the news.

 

[Anonymous]

I have supported the idea in the past, but I don't think it would work. The current riders cannot even find it in themselves to speak honestly about Armstrong after he was sanctioned. These guys will not come forward and admit their own malfeasance.

Could be lots of reasons why riders say dubious things in public.

The thing that makes me optimistic is Tygarts ability to get 10+ people to smash the omertà and go on the record about LA escapades.

 

[hiero2]

I just had a thought - after reading the Pound bit linked a bit up the thread.

Most times - about 99 44/100 % of the time - it doesn't pay to buck the system - you just get yourself slammed. Example #1, Landis. Eg #2, Bassons, Eg #3, Clerc; etc etc. People discover this all the time in the biz world and the political world. However, on rare occasions you get an Arab spring. Even then, the problem is often that the old structure reasserts itself with a new face.

More often, successful change happens by co-opting the power structure to act in your behalf.

I'm not saying this might happen, but WHAT IF somebody was to get the UCI to stand behind a Truth and Reconciliation Commission? They could paint themselves as the good guys in the whole thing, and keep their golden parachutes, while at the same time generating the change we want to see?

I don't even think there is a remote chance this would happen, but I'm just saying "what if". IF enough powerful people at the top of the UCI were convinced to get into this, AND to really back it, it could happen that way. Otherwise, the more I read, the more I wish Clerc was back, and the more I hope the UCI folds its tent! But, just like the government, dealing with scuzzballs in some penny-ante country, or me, dealing with a scuzzball in the corner office, sometimes you have to work with the devil you know to get some part of what you think should happen.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Who would run the commission?

Patrice Clerc. That guy needs to run the UCI at Hein's level. Then we'd be getting somewhere assuming there's some serious housekeeping. Alain Rumpf, and of course Pat McQuaid I'm looking at both of you...

Other names: Sylvia Shenk, Pound himself perhaps. JV1973 mentioned one other name along with Clerc as 'good guys.' I can't find it now....

The IOC needs to hire Mr. Clerc make a "truth and reconcilliation" event mandatory for remaining IOC blessed and show Hein the door. That only fixes somethings because as soon as Mr. Clerc is inside the IOC machine, I think he'll have new problems with the way the IOC operates.

Don't think Hein will just retire either. Hein's got his own sports league.

 

[skippy]

Long before Lance rolled over on the USADA charges i proposed an " Amnesty "! You people chose to ignore it because it dd not suit your purposes , you wanted to see Lance stripped of ALL his titles !

Had John Fahey of WADA & Jacques Rogge of IOC the courage to stand up to their executive bodies and demand the " Amnesty " then a " Truth & Rec. Commission would work .

My proposal called for a deadline to be set and thereafter the names would be puplished BUT no penalties would have accrued to those " fessing up "! It then would become a published Website that ALL could refer to in order for Team Assistants to see that their ATHLETES , both current and former had acted to absolve themselves from ANY Wrongdoings .

After a further period of Months , those seeing their Athletes / colleagues / team members , not participating would need to " Fess up themselves " , better in confidence , so as to avoid being caught up in the " Life Time Bans " being handed down to those choosing to take their chances of discovery .

Take Kohl as an example , should he put his hand up , then ALL of his Team Support Staff ,would be in the clear . However , should he risk discovery , the Team Principle , Team Doctor , Team Soigneur and Directeur Sportives would be subject to " Life Time Bans " if they did not report their awareness / participation in " Sporting FRauds " committed by Kohl during his employment by the team .

When an athlete has retired from active racing , many join the backroom staff and would undoubtedly not wish to suffer unemployment for neglecting to report cases of " Sporting FRaud "! That they indulged in the same activities whilst actively racing is of no consequence . Staying quiet will only risk discovery and the penalties will be too burdensome to ignore .

Life Time Bans will mean that those people will not even be able to buy " On line tickets " to Sporting Events of any nature nor work in any job that has a place in the sporting field , be it Media , Travel , manufacturing etc .

Some would say that Jail Time would be more appropriate but then that adds expense to the State so locked and tagged in their homes will reduce the costs to their community .

Asked JV by tweet to act but all i saw was a lot of ducking & diving on the clinic , fact is the past is dead and the future needs to be " Spotless "!