Truth and Reconciliation

[RownhamHill]

Right oh.

So all the discussion about T&R seems to have centered around a certain Texan's involvement or not. Interesting as that is, there are tons of other stories from the last 20 years that could be better told if the process is successful, for example:

- Miguel Indurain's career
- 1999 'tour of redemption' - leaving aside USPS, how dirty was the rest of it?
- Classicmano Luigi, and all the other untold(confirmed) stories from Fuentes (could they get Fuentes to appear for example?)
- Contador at the 2007/09 tours, and the 2010 Clen positive leak/cover up - just what the hell was going on there behind the scenes.
- Denis Menchov and Frank Schleck!

And so on. The cynic in me says there's no incentive for the older guys to get involved as it's a lot of hassle for not much pay back (other than an even more tarnished legacy), and there's no incentive for the guys still racing to say anything either for even more obvious reasons.

But, you know, I'm hopeful that at least some more of the bigger picture will emerge. So, since it looks like something will happen in the new year, what's people's predictions:

- how 'successful' will T&R be?
- what, and how much will be revealed?
- will it just become another tiresome chapter in the Lance Armstrong show, and allow everyone else to hide in his shadow?
- will the sport look any different come the 2014/15 seasons as a result?

 

[Benotti69]

T&R is a get out jail free card and will not change the culture to dope in the sport.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Just look at how many fellows told something to the Dutch authorities, two, maybe three?

Omerta is in the mindset of 99% of the cyclists, only with a figurative gun to their heads they will speak up, and even then they will not do a tell all. Why? Because their livelyhoods are dependant of cycling. Ninetyfive procent of the cyclists are just pretty dumb, they cant do anything else than ride hard on a bike.

My hopes are set on independant, smart cyclists with a decent education to speak up, not a T&R hoax.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

It will take a biggie to step forward to get things rolling. Somebody like Riis, Amadio or Ochowicz could do the right thing (yeah, right!). Otherwise it will be another chapter in the Armstrong saga.

 

[Clausfarre]

Who gets the invites? Every pro in recent times or only suspected or known dopers?

And it is somewhat doubtful that people that have previously only made very lightweight admissions and kept out of the limelight will suddenly agree to spill their guts and reveal every needle dripping detail.

Personally, I'd love to hear new revelations but for everyone to become open books doesn't seem plausible. How does this work, exactly? If you say no to participation will you just be outed as part of some other rider's confession?

 

[sniper]

It will take a biggie to step forward to get things rolling. Somebody like Riis, Amadio or Ochowicz could do the right thing (yeah, right!). Otherwise it will be another chapter in the Armstrong saga.

I don't think Riis is gonna do an extended Zabel.

 

[sniper]

definition of reconcilliation:
"re-establishing normal relations between belligerents"

who are the belligerents here?

 

[RownhamHill]

definition of reconcilliation:
"re-establishing normal relations between belligerents"

who are the belligerents here?

Benotti and Dr Maserati?

 

[del1962]

One name why T&R wont work, Stuart O'Grady

 

[ScienceIsCool]

I think it'll work just splendidly. Come in and talk - you get a free pass and the ability to be re-integrated into the sport. But if you don't come in and talk...

Better pray nobody mentions your name or you'll be facing the "death sentence". You know, the same process and penalty that happened to a certain Texan.

It's the perfect example of a mini-T&R in action.

John Swanson

 

[mattghg]

only with a figurative gun to their heads they will speak up

This.

The way to get truth is not to give everyone a free pass. You have to put a few figurative guns to a few heads.

 

[Samson777]

I wanna know about Voecklers 2011 Tour But that would maybe kill the UCI- ASO relation for good..

 

[jens_attacks]

I wanna know about Voecklers 2011 Tour But that would maybe kill the UCI- ASO relation for good..

chouchou hemoglobine rise at 20 most likely...
kern destroying the passport
rolland new breathing technique.it's simple, you don't have to
letters coming from uci all over the place


bernaudeau is da man. if i'd have a team, that's how i'd roll

 

[frenchfry]

T&R is a get out jail free card and will not change the culture to dope in the sport.

I probably would have used a lot more words to say the same thing.

Armstrong is looking forward to manipulating the process, no truth that isn't already public knowledge and expecting "reconciliation" in the form of a major reduction of his suspension. No one who hasn't already been caught or outed will come anywhere near something like this.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Anyone care to recall the "stakeholders meeting" the UCI had in the depth of the USADA news cycle? All we got out of that was fewer races and most of them owned by ASO.

The beauty of this stage drama will be that anyone actually appearing at the thing can straight-up lie with impunity. "I was a lone doper who lost the way of clean competition... like the other top grand tour athletes who sourced their own PED's and knew how to use them..."

If Cookson plays this right though, it can "close" Hein and Pat's reign of corruption. The official communication will conveniently forget the fact he was on the management committee for most of it and everyone behind the fraud just keeps going as if the problem really was isloated to lone dopers.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyEnoughToWork

 

[DirtyWorks]

I wanna know about Voecklers 2011 Tour But that would maybe kill the UCI- ASO relation for good..

Don't give up on the French yet!

Did you know the head of the French federation is working towards building a Sky/BC USPS/USAC structure? It's going to be awesome. Motoman can run things out of his bike shop this way.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Benotti and Dr Maserati?

HAHHAhA good one.

 

[IndianCyclist]

Right oh.
But, you know, I'm hopeful that at least some more of the bigger picture will emerge. So, since it looks like something will happen in the new year, what's people's predictions:

Hope will die first

- how 'successful' will T&R be?

Depends on how one looks at it.

- what, and how much will be revealed?

peanuts

- will it just become another tiresome chapter in the Lance Armstrong show, and allow everyone else to hide in his shadow?

yes

- will the sport look any different come the 2014/15 seasons as a result?

No

 

[MonkeyFace]

I think it'll work just splendidly. Come in and talk - you get a free pass and the ability to be re-integrated into the sport. But if you don't come in and talk...

Better pray nobody mentions your name or you'll be facing the "death sentence". You know, the same process and penalty that happened to a certain Texan.

It's the perfect example of a mini-T&R in action.

John Swanson

Go read Wheelmen. Starting page 277.

Armstrong walked away because he thought he could beat USADA's case. USADA internally was talking about a 6 month ban and the lost of his last two TDF wins. The life long band was done by Armstrong himself. Even at that, where was the outrage for Ricco's lifetime ban? What he did pales in-comparison to Armstrong.

 

[mattghg]

If Cookson plays this right though, it can "close" Hein and Pat's reign of corruption. The official communication will conveniently forget the fact he was on the management committee for most of it and everyone behind the fraud just keeps going as if the problem really was isloated to lone dopers.

The thing is, we don't know who knew what when or had what power to do anything about it.

That's why the big deal isn't T&R (which I hope doesn't happen), but the independent investigation into UCI complicity that we've been promised.

 

[martinvickers]

Right oh.

So all the discussion about T&R seems to have centered around a certain Texan's involvement or not. Interesting as that is, there are tons of other stories from the last 20 years that could be better told if the process is successful, for example:

- Miguel Indurain's career
- 1999 'tour of redemption' - leaving aside USPS, how dirty was the rest of it?
- Classicmano Luigi, and all the other untold(confirmed) stories from Fuentes (could they get Fuentes to appear for example?)
- Contador at the 2007/09 tours, and the 2010 Clen positive leak/cover up - just what the hell was going on there behind the scenes.
- Denis Menchov and Frank Schleck!

And so on. The cynic in me says there's no incentive for the older guys to get involved as it's a lot of hassle for not much pay back (other than an even more tarnished legacy), and there's no incentive for the guys still racing to say anything either for even more obvious reasons.

But, you know, I'm hopeful that at least some more of the bigger picture will emerge. So, since it looks like something will happen in the new year, what's people's predictions:

- how 'successful' will T&R be?
- what, and how much will be revealed?
- will it just become another tiresome chapter in the Lance Armstrong show, and allow everyone else to hide in his shadow?
- will the sport look any different come the 2014/15 seasons as a result?

Well, first of all,people are going to have to come to a conclusion about what they actually want from it, and what's possible.

You can want justice/vengence for the past.

You can want cleaner sport going forward.

They are two different things.

I think a lot of people in here will be disappointed unless they get the former. Truth is, I doubt they will in any meaningful way. With SoL and everything else, there's no risk to stonewalling T&RC if you are out of the game. What does Indurain, Delgado, Roche, hell even Mercx and Kelly lose if they just refuse to talk?

Nothing, they're immune. For some people, that's the end of any interest in it - if they can't get payback on the famous names, they're not gonna bother.

Obviously if you still have a job in the sport, particular in actual competition (riis etc) things are a bit different.

Me - I think Angelou, via Mallon, got it right. The Past can't be relived. If faced with courage it need not be lived again.

It seems simple. Generous amnesty for those who will talk. Absolute death sentences to those who refuse. First part of process involving invitation for written private submissions. People won't know if someone's gonna rat them out to escape, makes them a bit more likely to talk first and get the amnesty. that's how you get somebody talking. And you only get the amnesty for FULL disclosure - no halfway 'omerta' house.

now, the problem with that is it sounds pretty identical to a witch trial, minus the supernatural nonsense. But it's all we got.

 

[Benotti69]

Teams and riders are gonna band together and agree what to tell to a T&R, the bare minimum.

Are there any riders in the current peloton that would 'tell all' and risk being ostracised from the sport?

How is a T&R going to verify the few who will truthfully tell all against the majority who will tell little?

 

[sniper]

Teams and riders are gonna band together and agree what to tell to a T&R, the bare minimum.

Are there any riders in the current peloton that would 'tell all' and risk being ostracised from the sport?

How is a T&R going to verify the few who will truthfully tell all against the majority who will tell little?

Plus, how would usada look if those 2006ers suddenly appear to have doped well beyond 2006. Not gonna happen.
I,d have more faith in lance doing a tell all than those garmin boys.

 

[Benotti69]

Plus, how would usada look if those 2006ers suddenly appear to have doped well beyond 2006. Not gonna happen.
I,d have more faith in lance doing a tell all than those garmin boys.

I am guessing Garmin riders were only asked about USPS/Disco, which is why Tygart is going to be made look like he was witch hunting Armstrong!

This whole thing is looking ridiculous.

 

[zigmeister]

Just because they go in and reveal the "facts" and "truth", doesn't mean the testimony will ever make the light of day.

USADA/Tygart, UCI and the rest, will of course selectively reveal bits/pieces to maintain things in the best light and protect themselves.

They will give more info about Armstrong, because they put all their eggs into that basket.

What? All of the sudden they are going to bring fury upon 50-70% of the guys still riding in a giant blowout of "truth" to the sport?

Not happening.

But, the only way to get this stuff at least into the right people's heads, will be a truth/reconciliation....give the entire sport a 6 month suspension, no races...and call it a day and move on.