Twenty-two years into the EPO era, and...

[Berzin]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

1994 was supposedly the tipping point in Italian cycling, with the Gewiss team taking an unprecedented 1-2-3 in the Fleche Wallone semi-classic, where Dr. Ferrari made his infamous declaration about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice.

That was almost 18 years ago, and I've never heard anything about riders from this time suffering health risks like blood clots, strokes and all manner of cancers and other illnesses.

We are also talking about pre-1997, before the UCI set up it's 50% hematocrit limit when riders routinely went over 50%. Way over, and for longer periods of time, judging by what they could have gotten away with, which was plenty*. (*If one is to go by the hearsay that passes for anecdotal evidence)

So...any explanation for this?

 

[L'arriviste]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

1994 was supposedly the tipping point in Italian cycling, with the Gewiss team taking an unprecedented 1-2-3 in the Fleche Wallone semi-classic, where Dr. Ferrari made his infamous declaration about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice.

That was almost 18 years ago, and I've never heard anything about riders from this time suffering health risks like blood clots, strokes and all manner of cancers and other illnesses.

We are also talking about pre-1997, before the UCI set up it's 50% hematocrit limit when riders routinely went over 50%. Way over, and for longer periods of time, judging by what they could have gotten away with, which was plenty*. (*If one is to go by the hearsay that passes for anecdotal evidence)

So...any explanation for this?

I mentioned only recently that I would like to see more stories about long-term effects. But I think the sad fact is that the matter of pro cyclists' health is all very public during their careers when there's a doping scandal afoot. When they're gone and nobody's interested in them anymore, it's a matter for them and their family doctor.

Last weekend saw the anniversary of the death of a certain former pro rider who died rather young not long ago, cause of death unreported. Even if he wasn't a doper during his career (in the early 90s) and even if there are lots of other reasons why people die apparently younger than expected, it did make me think about this very subject.

On Gewiss, I had to laugh when re-reading an interview from last year with Moreno Argentin:

"What was Argentin's special knowledge that helped him beat Indurain at L-B-L? 'Cycling in summer, skiing in winter'"

Just what the doctor ordered...

 

[sniper]

I personally I'm not primarily in the anti-doping fight because it causes health-damage. Much more, I am in it because I want to see pure and honest sports.

I think we have to acknowledge that, when applied properly, being on a program, like most cyclists, will turn out not to be all that damaging on the long run.

that doesn't mean that each single death case caused by doping is one too many.

 

[WillemS]

I think it's very difficult to link certain health problems to causes over 15 years ago. While they may well be attributing to or be the main reason for some health problems, the connection is often hard to make and harder to maintain. We humans don't reason well with probabilistic hazards, especially in retrospect. In hindsight the probability of certain causes are overestimated, but at the same time we're more likely to blame recent events.

If there were clearcut statistics, both of which riders where using what and how much and the medical history of riders, we might be able to spot some correlations, but we don't have that. Now all we have are maybe some isolated cases of early death, but people die young for a multitude of reasons, one of them may just be "doing to much sports".

We do, however, have some indications of adverse long-term health effects in a clinical setting, but it's hard to generalize that to the general population as erythropoietin is often used in patients with severe health problems (for instance to counter anemia induced by dialysis). See for instance The cardiovascular effects of erythropoietin.

Thus, I just don't think we know.

 

[Benotti69]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

1994 was supposedly the tipping point in Italian cycling, with the Gewiss team taking an unprecedented 1-2-3 in the Fleche Wallone semi-classic, where Dr. Ferrari made his infamous declaration about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice.

That was almost 18 years ago, and I've never heard anything about riders from this time suffering health risks like blood clots, strokes and all manner of cancers and other illnesses.

We are also talking about pre-1997, before the UCI set up it's 50% hematocrit limit when riders routinely went over 50%. Way over, and for longer periods of time, judging by what they could have gotten away with, which was plenty*. (*If one is to go by the hearsay that passes for anecdotal evidence)

So...any explanation for this?

Marco Pantani - January 13 1970 – February 14 2004

Frederiek Nolf - 10 February 1987 – 5 February 2009

2 of the top of my head

 

[hrotha]

The riders of the EPO era are in their early 50s at most. They're still relatively young. We still lack perspective.

 

[L'arriviste]

...
Frederiek Nolf - 10 February 1987 – 5 February 2009
...

I think OP was talking about the early 90s generation of riders, so yes that includes Pantani but not Nolf.

Bert Oosterbosch and Johannes Draaijer are two contemporaneous deaths. Draaijer's death was the only one I included in Dopeology because there were no other confirmations that deaths at that time were probably EPO-related, whatever Willy Voet et al said.

 

[WD-40.]

Marco Pantani - January 13 1970 – February 14 2004

Frederiek Nolf - 10 February 1987 – 5 February 2009

2 of the top of my head

I have had a former athlete friend die of a drug overdose. In all probability he would not have lived long no matter what help he got. Like Pantani his troubles almost certainly had nothing to do with EPO or anything PED related but was just in his genetic make up.

Another friend in my cycling club at the time was healthy it seemed in his late teens and died suddenly in his sleep, though he was not as serious an athlete. Most likely he died due to a unseen genetic disorder which is reasonably common and showed no previous signs at all... Perhaps not unlike F Nolf.

See where I am going, some idiots here seem so determined to blame anything from depression to genetic heart failure to divorce etc on consumption of PEDs whilst completely failing to see that the general population may get these things even worse IMO.

Stick to reality.

 

[L'arriviste]

I have had a former athlete friend die of a drug overdose. In all probability he would not have lived long no matter what help he got. Like Pantani his troubles almost certainly had nothing to do with EPO or anything PED related but was just in his genetic make up.

Another friend in my cycling club at the time was healthy it seemed in his late teens and died suddenly in his sleep, though he was not as serious an athlete. Most likely he died due to a unseen genetic disorder which is reasonably common and showed no previous signs at all... Perhaps not unlike F Nolf.

See where I am going, some idiots here seem so determined to blame anything from depression to genetic heart failure to divorce etc on consumption of PEDs whilst completely failing to see that the general population may get these things even worse IMO.

Stick to reality.

A sensible warning, of course. This is why above I said "there are lots of other reasons why people die apparently younger than expected".

 

[frenchfry]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

1994 was supposedly the tipping point in Italian cycling, with the Gewiss team taking an unprecedented 1-2-3 in the Fleche Wallone semi-classic, where Dr. Ferrari made his infamous declaration about EPO being no more dangerous than orange juice.

That was almost 18 years ago, and I've never heard anything about riders from this time suffering health risks like blood clots, strokes and all manner of cancers and other illnesses.

We are also talking about pre-1997, before the UCI set up it's 50% hematocrit limit when riders routinely went over 50%. Way over, and for longer periods of time, judging by what they could have gotten away with, which was plenty*. (*If one is to go by the hearsay that passes for anecdotal evidence)

So...any explanation for this?

Giorgio Furlan, who in 1994 won Tirreno Adriatico, Milan SanRemo and the Critérium International as well as second in the Gewiss podium sweep of Flèche Wallonne, (and the Flèche Wallonne and Tour de Suisse in 1992 with Ariostea), retired in 1998 with severe thrombosis in a leg.

In general these kinds of health problems aren't well advertised.

 

[Cloxxki]

Young athletes die in their sleep. Family decides to have no investigation as to the cause of death.
Potentially, a percentage could have been linked to EPO use. And then we can only test for EPO itself for a while.
Any such cases could also not contribute to awareness or knowledge or EPO risks.

So you die, and it was of no use to those making the same mistakes after you. I dare bet that in deaths among youth athletes, fewer times the family allows post-mortem research than with non-athletes of the same age.

I hope to be wrong!

 

[Benotti69]

See where I am going, some idiots here seem so determined to blame anything .........

I suppose you knew Pantani personally and knew what made him tick and why he got to where and when his life ended.

PEDs i guess and can imagine have a psychological impact on people. Feeling like you can do anything with a Hematocrit level of 50%+ then the felling that your legs wont move without PEDS can have effects more than physical.

Who is gonna publicly admit to using PEDs and damage their reputation, that of their formers teams, team mates and embarrass the families and friends when they suffer later in life.

When Stephen Swart wanted to come clean about his PED use as a pro his wife was against it, but he insisted he wanted to do it then and not have any regrets about waiting till his deathbed to confess.

The cycling community is very small and in european countries incestues in many ways.

 

[BotanyBay]

Where are the dramatic health consequences for riders who were marinating in EPO and other PED's from approximately 1990 until now?

Do your own body count. You'll need more than two hands and two feet though.

 

[Suedehead]

El Chava - heart attack at 32.

According to the death of pantani book, peds and success was not very good for marcos fragile mental health, probably helping him into the depression and cocaine route. Pantani should be on your list twice, he nearly died after the milan-turin crash in 95(?), his body had stopped producing red blood cells after a season of heavy epo use. Don't mess with the enocrine system seems to be the general idea outside the doping, and anti-aging docs.

 

[hrotha]

The case of el Chava is a tricky one. Using PEDs surely didn't help, but he also had recreational drug problems on top of that.

 

[Benotti69]

The case of el Chava is a tricky one. Using PEDs surely didn't help, but he also had recreational drug problems on top of that.

Which came first the PED usage or the recreational usage. I image PED came first and led to the second.

 

[hrotha]

Which came first the PED usage or the recreational usage. I image PED came first and led to the second.

Probably, but things are more complicated than a simple correlation > causation link. Aside from the PEDs and the coke, there was also the alcohol. That was the kind of person he was.

 

[Berzin]

Which came first the PED usage or the recreational usage. I image PED came first and led to the second.

So PED's are a "gateway" drug to cocaine and alcohol? C'mon, man. Please.

I guess in a cynical way I'm trying to understand why the whole Gewiss team of 1994-96 haven't dropped dead yet, or the ONCE team of 1995-98.

Virenque and Jalabert are both walking around like nothing happened. My conjecture is, with the amount of drugs they are both alleged to have ingested over the course of their careers, it would seem logical that enough time has passed where the physical repercussions would manifest themselves.

Neither Pantani nor Jimenez died of PED abuse, so using them as examples is not applicable.

 

[Nick C.]

In the papers today was this news. Chester McGlockton a former NFL All-Pro defensive lineman "died overnight" "cause of death not immediately announced" He was 42.

edit:
I know its not an EPO sport but since the topic was veering towards PEDS ...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

So PED's are a "gateway" drug to cocaine and alcohol? C'mon, man. Please.

I guess in a cynical way I'm trying to understand why the whole Gewiss team of 1994-96 haven't dropped dead yet, or the ONCE team of 1995-98.

Virenque and Jalabert are both walking around like nothing happened. My conjecture is, with the amount of drugs they are both alleged to have ingested over the course of their careers, it would seem logical that enough time has passed where the physical repercussions would manifest themselves.

Neither Pantani nor Jimenez died of PED abuse, so using them as examples is not applicable.

With EPO or blood doping there are 2 risks, when you are using it and the longer term.

While some new studies have recently raised concerns for anemic cancer patients I always felt the dangers with EPO/blood doping was when it was being used - ie blood thickening or botched transfusion.

Virenque & Jaja are only just in their early 40's - I think its too early to yet to judge how they will fare.

 

[Benotti69]

So PED's are a "gateway" drug to cocaine and alcohol? C'mon, man. Please.

I guess in a cynical way I'm trying to understand why the whole Gewiss team of 1994-96 haven't dropped dead yet, or the ONCE team of 1995-98.

Virenque and Jalabert are both walking around like nothing happened. My conjecture is, with the amount of drugs they are both alleged to have ingested over the course of their careers, it would seem logical that enough time has passed where the physical repercussions would manifest themselves.

Neither Pantani nor Jimenez died of PED abuse, so using them as examples is not applicable.

Neither died of direct abuse but problems may have arisen that led to other substance abuse. But C'mon Man, drug abuse is drug abuse whether it is popping HGH EPO or a line of coke.

I would say Vaughters is suffering very visibly from substance abuse, have you seen his wardrobe.

 

[Berzin]

I would say Vaughters is suffering very visibly from substance abuse, have you seen his wardrobe.

Now THAT was funny!!!

 

[BroDeal]

Neither died of direct abuse but problems may have arisen that led to other substance abuse. But C'mon Man, drug abuse is drug abuse whether it is popping HGH EPO or a line of coke.

I would say Vaughters is suffering very visibly from substance abuse, have you seen his wardrobe.

"Drugs are bad, m'kay."

Get a grip, bro. Using EPO to win a bike race is in no way equivalent to smokin' a bowl every weekend. The reasons for doing the two are completely different.

 

[Maxiton]

"Drugs are bad, m'kay."

Get a grip, bro. Using EPO to win a bike race is in no way equivalent to smokin' a bowl every weekend. The reasons for doing the two are completely different.

Yeah, one is performance enhancing and the other . . . not so much.

I think it's entirely reasonable to suppose that PEDs are, for a good many users, a gateway to other illicit drugs. Ask Tom Boonen, Lance Armstrong, Marco Pantani, to site three names. And this is one good argument for making PEDs legal. Because if they were acquired legally and administered by medical professionals in the light of day -- instead of being brought in through many of the same back channels as, say, heroin and coke, and by many of the same shadowy types -- they wouldn't be illicit (and the athlete wouldn't be out of integrity) and thus not associated with drugs for abuse.

EDIT: And I'm sure some of you here, if you cared to, could make a better, longer list than I can, of pro cyclists or former pros who went on to have problems with drug abuse, up to and including their own death.

 

[Benotti69]

Get a grip, bro. Using EPO to win a bike race is in no way equivalent to smokin' a bowl every weekend. The reasons for doing the two are completely different.

actually the reasons are similar, not happy with reality, the reality of their performance levels and the reality of their mental state levels. I see the two as being similar m'kay.

But it is ok because JV is in a happy place now.