Tyler talks hematocrit?

So someone like Phelps could have a hct of 44 naturally and 'load up' to 55 and then 'saline down' to 49 and NEVER test poz based on Hamilton's recent statements in his new book about how easy it is to pass doping control.

Patrick Jonker said on aussie radio yesterday that 'if your hct/hemoglobin goes up in a GT then you fo sure doing 'something'. Reality is though if you get dehydrated your hct is going to go up. Same with hemoglobin.

So why are USADA using Lance's hematocrit and hemoglobin values as 'evidence' when it can just be dehydration explaining the rising values in a GT?

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?
 
Sep 2, 2012
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durianrider said:
Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?

Placings? EPO leads to an increase in performance, dehydration to a decrease in performance.
 
Apr 14, 2010
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No offence, but I'll take the views of WADA doctors over a banana eater/youtube personality/forum contributor on how to tell if someone's testing is suspicious. I've got a feeling Ashenden etc have considered the fact that people sweat
 
Oct 25, 2010
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Just an armchair guess...but I would think those values going up due to dehydration would be miniscule compared to the massive raises you will get on epo...that and performance decrease...
 
Mar 19, 2009
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durianrider said:
So someone like Phelps could have a hct of 44 naturally and 'load up' to 55 and then 'saline down' to 49 and NEVER test poz based on Hamilton's recent statements in his new book about how easy it is to pass doping control.

Patrick Jonker said on aussie radio yesterday that 'if your hct/hemoglobin goes up in a GT then you fo sure doing 'something'. Reality is though if you get dehydrated your hct is going to go up. Same with hemoglobin.

So why are USADA using Lance's hematocrit and hemoglobin values as 'evidence' when it can just be dehydration explaining the rising values in a GT?

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?
Blood testing is much more advanced than that now. Going over 50% is only indication of "bad health", sidelines you for 2 weeks. Happened to a Russian XC Skier recently. He went on to medal at world later that season as I remember.
Lance is established as blood doper based on his tests, none of which were 50%. Not necessary for a positive. Read up on it, I sure know I need to.
 
May 26, 2009
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durianrider said:
So someone like Phelps could have a hct of 44 naturally and 'load up' to 55 and then 'saline down' to 49 and NEVER test poz based on Hamilton's recent statements in his new book about how easy it is to pass doping control.

Patrick Jonker said on aussie radio yesterday that 'if your hct/hemoglobin goes up in a GT then you fo sure doing 'something'. Reality is though if you get dehydrated your hct is going to go up. Same with hemoglobin.

So why are USADA using Lance's hematocrit and hemoglobin values as 'evidence' when it can just be dehydration explaining the rising values in a GT?

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?
Durian, as expert on fitness you post the most ridiculous drivel.

If riders get dehydrated enough to affect blood chemistry they loose 30 minutes+ or drop out....

Your notion that riders get significantly dehydrated is insane. The moment we see a lack of nutrients/fluids we see them boink.

The best example is Fignon, who had the most epic deficit ever:

He was first in the race. In sight of the flamme rouge he simply stepped of his bike and ripped food and drinks out of the hands of spectators.
So far no evidence when this happened :D Perhaps history has influenced my memory? Is this a blend of his huge boink in 1992 and the smaller boink in 1984 (where indeed he was winning)?

I'm sure, even imagine the pictures seeing him on the ground gorging himself.... can anyone confirm I'm making up stuff or tell me which race it was? :D
 
Sep 29, 2012
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durianrider said:
So someone like Phelps could have a hct of 44 naturally and 'load up' to 55 and then 'saline down' to 49 and NEVER test poz based on Hamilton's recent statements in his new book about how easy it is to pass doping control.

Patrick Jonker said on aussie radio yesterday that 'if your hct/hemoglobin goes up in a GT then you fo sure doing 'something'. Reality is though if you get dehydrated your hct is going to go up. Same with hemoglobin.

So why are USADA using Lance's hematocrit and hemoglobin values as 'evidence' when it can just be dehydration explaining the rising values in a GT?

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?
(De)hydration effects, as well as recent training / racing effects are taken into account when blood testing is done.

Athletes are not tested for 2 hours post exercise.
Athletes must be seated for 10 minutes prior to blood being drawn.
Athletes must communicate recent altitude training / effects at time of blood withdrawal
Athletes current exercise regime is taken into account.
(they are asked a bunch of questions).

Riders rehydrate immediately post-stage (if you ever watched any pro racing you'd know this).

The protocols for blood tests have been developed over many, many years. Do you really think they would let it become this obviously broken? Fail on the reality test dude.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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PCutter said:
No offence, but I'll take the views of WADA doctors over a banana eater/youtube personality/forum contributor on how to tell if someone's testing is suspicious. I've got a feeling Ashenden etc have considered the fact that people sweat
I don't think science is durianriders strongpoint. I enjoyed your post immensely.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
(De)hydration effects, as well as recent training / racing effects are taken into account when blood testing is done.

Athletes are not tested for 2 hours post exercise.
Athletes must be seated for 10 minutes prior to blood being drawn.
Athletes must communicate recent altitude training / effects at time of blood withdrawal
Athletes current exercise regime is taken into account.
(they are asked a bunch of questions).

Riders rehydrate immediately post-stage (if you ever watched any pro racing you'd know this).

The protocols for blood tests have been developed over many, many years. Do you really think they would let it become this obviously broken? Fail on the reality test dude.
Wrong on all counts. Looks like you just made it up to look smart. ;)

"Athletes are not tested for 2 hours post exercise". Explain why Contador is still
in his sweaty cycling kit walking out of doping control & his team bikes are not packed in the team van 2hours later?? LMAO! Reality is riders are tested within MINUTES of a stage finish.


"Athletes must be seated for 10 minutes prior to blood being drawn".
Thats nonsense. I remember my team mate getting blood drawn in belgium and was in and out in minutes whilst I watched his bike.

"Athletes must communicate recent altitude training / effects at time of blood withdrawal". Thats more nonsense. 'Hey Contador, your hct is at 72?? have you been sleeping much in your altitude tent last month?, oh you have? ok, thats fine then, let me write down 45 for your hct values. Lucky you told us otherwise you would have been suspended!'.

Athletes current exercise regime is taken into account.
(they are asked a bunch of questions).
More nonsense.
"So how many w/kg have you been maintaining on your local strava KOM climbs? How many km did you ride this week and what about cups of water. Did you stay up late on Thursday night watching TV? How much soy sauce do you use on your rice cos we have to factor in if your hct is diluted from excess sodium intake'.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Dear DurianRider

You seem upset about something. I hope you haven't just lost a hero to a doping conspiracy or anything?

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204287


Implementation of the biological passport: the experience of the International Cycling Union.


In January 2010,WADApublished theAthleteBiological Passport
Operating Guidelines [7] and technical documents that define the
modalities of samples collection:
- Samples can only be collected 2 h after a physical effort (training
or competition).
- The athlete has to remain seated for at least 10min prior to
providing a sample.
- The athlete should be questioned about specific issues, like
altitude (natural or simulated), blood losses, donations, and
transfusions.
UCI has progressively taken these different elements into account
because the documents were only validated in December 2009
There are 2 possibilities:
1. UCI are not doing what they are saying (implementing the WADA modalities)
2. UCI are doing the above, and you do not know what is going on.

I don't really mind either way, but given this is a published study discussed on Science in Sport website, and the guidelines are available on the WADA website, eventually, if all goes according to plan, UCI will be doing the above, and more, in an effort to improve the quality of samples collected.

Sincerely
Dear Wiggo
 
Don Quixote said:
Placings? EPO leads to an increase in performance, dehydration to a decrease in performance.
Not true cos guys that finish mid pack on a stage have been busted before.

Also if you are in a big break all day and win cos you are low on GC you can still win dehydrated after 200k in the break but crawling on the last climb and using up most of the 10mins you gained. You are dehydrated yet still won.

Dehydration can take weeks to set in. A rider can be semi dehydrated yet still performing pretty well. Obviously not as good as they could being fully hydrated.
 
Jul 24, 2010
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durianrider said:
How much soy sauce do you use on your rice cos we have to factor in if your hct is diluted from excess sodium intake'.
You just lost all credibility with that sentence. You do not put soy sauce on rice, period. ;)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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durianrider said:
Wrong on all counts. Looks like you just made it up to look smart. ;)

"Athletes are not tested for 2 hours post exercise". Explain why Contador is still
in his sweaty cycling kit walking out of doping control & his team bikes are not packed in the team van 2hours later?? LMAO! Reality is riders are tested within MINUTES of a stage finish.


"Athletes must be seated for 10 minutes prior to blood being drawn".
Thats nonsense. I remember my team mate getting blood drawn in belgium and was in and out in minutes whilst I watched his bike.

"Athletes must communicate recent altitude training / effects at time of blood withdrawal". Thats more nonsense. 'Hey Contador, your hct is at 72?? have you been sleeping much in your altitude tent last month?, oh you have? ok, thats fine then, let me write down 45 for your hct values. Lucky you told us otherwise you would have been suspended!'.

Athletes current exercise regime is taken into account.
(they are asked a bunch of questions).
More nonsense.
"So how many w/kg have you been maintaining on your local strava KOM climbs? How many km did you ride this week and what about cups of water. Did you stay up late on Thursday night watching TV? How much soy sauce do you use on your rice cos we have to factor in if your hct is diluted from excess sodium intake'.
These are urine tests. They don't do blood tests immediately after a race.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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durianrider said:
Not true cos guys that finish mid pack on a stage have been busted before.
Your logic is broken. Improved performance means mid-pack for some riders.

durianrider said:
Also if you are in a big break all day and win cos you are low on GC you can still win dehydrated after 200k in the break but crawling on the last climb and using up most of the 10mins you gained. You are dehydrated yet still won.
Your logic is broken and disagrees with itself. You are dehydrated, therefore, "crawling" - ie your performance has decreased, as originally claimed and as you appear to be trying to disagree with, strangely. Position at the end of a bike race is not the sole definition of "performance". tsk tsk.

durianrider said:
Dehydration can take weeks to set in. A rider can be semi dehydrated yet still performing pretty well. Obviously not as good as they could being fully hydrated.
Your science is dodgy, or your definitions suspect. Please define dehydration based on % of body weight due to water loss.
 
Dear Wiggo said:
Dear DurianRider

You seem upset about something. I hope you haven't just lost a hero to a doping conspiracy or anything?

From: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21204287



There are 2 possibilities:
1. UCI are not doing what they are saying (implementing the WADA modalities)
2. UCI are doing the above, and you do not know what is going on.

I don't really mind either way, but given this is a published study discussed on Science in Sport website, and the guidelines are available on the WADA website, eventually, if all goes according to plan, UCI will be doing the above, and more, in an effort to improve the quality of samples collected.

Sincerely
Dear Wiggo
2hrs after exercise means that 'you have to test em with in 2hrs of finishing the stage vs you have to test em AFTER 2hrs of finishing the stage'. We have all watched bike racing on TV, DVD and seen the winner whisked away to doping control for a few minutes and then back out to sign autographs.

The 10minute rule could have changed since I was racing in Europe so I can accept that.

As for the altitude questions then that means its super easy to skirt around any 'strange' blood parameters.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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durianrider said:
As for the altitude questions then that means its super easy to skirt around any 'strange' blood parameters.
No. It just provides background to any values determined. The sample collector collects the sample and background info, that is the end of their part as soon as they post the sample - randomly identified.

The sample is then tested, in a lab. Noone knows who the rider is.

The values are entered into ADAMs, along with any supporting info.

Any suspicious trends are submitted to a passport panel for review, along with the supporting info. The passport and supporting info remain anonymous until such time as further action is required. The passport and info is then matched to a rider once action is deemed necessary.

Your obvious lack of knowledge in the subject, coupled with your alarmist posting makes you seem rather insincere.

What's your deal? Who are you upset about mate. Let it out, it will help.
 
Thats how easy it is to pass blood tests in 2012? WADA don't have any strict parameters that are objectively followed?

Do you really think the doping control have a check list saying:

'where did they finish in the pack compared to where they normally would and did they get a flat tyre or roll a single and thats why they finished mid pack vs up the front?

Or was there a crash in the last 5k of the chase bunch and they got away easily?

Has Tyler been walking Tugboat out in Boulder a bit more lately and that explains raised hct levels?'
 
So my original question still is:

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?

Tyler said in his book that most riders have a personal centrifuge so they can test their own hct and if its over 49, just give em selves a saline drip to bring it right down.
 
Feb 17, 2012
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PCutter said:
No offence, but I'll take the views of WADA doctors over a banana eater/youtube personality/forum contributor on how to tell if someone's testing is suspicious. I've got a feeling Ashenden etc have considered the fact that people sweat
Brilliant.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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durianrider said:
So my original question still is:

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?
No it gets better. Your Hct changes if you tilt your head down when taking the sample. Seriously. Look it up.

This is far more important than anything else currently being discussed on anything in the cycling world.

You should hold a press conference and share your earth shattering discovery that noone has thought of before.
 
So my original question still is:

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?

Why can't you answer the question DW?

I admit I can't.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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durianrider said:
So my original question still is:

Dehydration and EPO raise hemoglobin and hct values. How can a coach or WADA tell the difference?

Why can't you answer the question DW?

I admit I can't.
I did answer the question. You ignore the answer and repeat the question like some broken record.

Protocol dictates the exercise, training and altitude effects are taken into account. The blood is withdrawn 2 hours post-exericse.

Dehydration is dealt with through the protocol.

Your boy doped. End of story. Sorry you can't let go. There's 5 stages, so I suggest you hurry up with stage 1 and get to stage 2.
 
Feb 17, 2012
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Dear Wiggo, I just want to let you know what kind of logic you are up against here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfEcBHmnND0

If you can't be bothered watching 9 minutes of pure nonsense and a lot of swearing, here is a short summary

- There is and never has been a clean top athlete
- Lance is not cheating
- It's a level-played field
- Waste of tax payers money
- Lance has done such good for cycling in general
- Lance passed over 500 tests
- USADA are p***ed because he managed to pass these 500 tests and therefore are going after him in particular.

I've seen a couple of your videos DurianRider and I'm surprised that you didn't end this one by showing that you have a stomach and that you have girlfriend..
 

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