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Re: Re:

aphronesis said:
Koronin said:
aphronesis said:
I’d say it’s far beyond voting. Hillary in office now wouldn’t change anything in the greater scheme.
I think getting younger people voting might also lead to more of them getting involved in other aspects as well. It does appear that has happened at least in some areas of the country.

Hillary wouldn't have been the disaster this moron is, but then again neither would pretty much anyone one else that ran last time.
People didn’t want to vote for Hillary. Or the others. Voting is not enough. If you and many can’t begin to understand that, nothing will change.

Stop blaming him. Or voters. All the elements of the disaster were already in place.
Nice rhetoric...

EDIT: granted we can talk about the broken system all day, but the only way to make any change is to change the people in the system*. I know that you said "voting is not enough", but its a start. Sure some of the elements were in place, but can you honestly say that ANY of the other candidates would be like dt?

*It is difficult to find people, especially at the national level, who really want to change the system because the system works really well for politicians and their friends.
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
aphronesis said:
Koronin said:
aphronesis said:
I’d say it’s far beyond voting. Hillary in office now wouldn’t change anything in the greater scheme.
I think getting younger people voting might also lead to more of them getting involved in other aspects as well. It does appear that has happened at least in some areas of the country.

Hillary wouldn't have been the disaster this moron is, but then again neither would pretty much anyone one else that ran last time.
People didn’t want to vote for Hillary. Or the others. Voting is not enough. If you and many can’t begin to understand that, nothing will change.

Stop blaming him. Or voters. All the elements of the disaster were already in place.
Nice rhetoric...

EDIT: granted we can talk about the broken system all day, but the only way to make any change is to change the people in the system*. I know that you said "voting is not enough", but its a start. Sure some of the elements were in place, but can you honestly say that ANY of the other candidates would be like dt?

*It is difficult to find people, especially at the national level, who really want to change the system because the system works really well for politicians and their friends.

This.


Anyone else would NOT be close to the current disaster. It's a fact that not nearly as many people vote in the primaries. There were plenty of OTHER candidates in the GOP primary that would not have been the complete disaster we currently have.
 
Aphro.your points are valid to a degree. As a young man I had different priorities and perspectives. When Pepperdine told me to pack my stuff and leave I did. I went to find out if my desire to go to school and my admitted limited pot smoking would disqualify me from military service and obtaining a diploma.
Both the Navy and Army said "hell yes". After consulting with my grandfather(ex Navy) and my uncle(an Army officer serving in the Panama Canal zone) I found myself in the Navy.
Any assertion you think you see about my uber patriotism is misplaced. I took the Navy route because it was the easiest and the cheapest.
I didn't know then that the military industrial complex was real and included all US petroleum interests. That discovery took many years after waking from hangovers all over the world.
I find some of your implied ideology a little bit defeatist. Yes I am against big oil,but I still use combustion engines daily..often on land and sea.
I enjoy flying rather than riding horseback to go skiing or see the Tour DFrance..
I also want to be picked up in an ambulance w a V8 vs a pedicab..I want the same for you and my friends and family. I also want petroleum powered fire trucks to respond until a greener, as effective form of power comes online.
So it looks like I will probably be in bed, in servitude to big oil from birth to death. If Elon Musk can't solve the problem..I sure as hell can't..
My defeatist comments are based on what I assume as a sense of disappointment in people like me that are filling up Yamahas and BMW's w the liquid of an evil empire because I am too lazy to get..or invent or imagine an alternative..
Sorry..
*I have ridden(short test drives) 2 electric motorcycles. Absolutely fantastic!!!
If I can figure out how to ride one from N.Baja to Cape Cod on one for vacation I will. Keep you updated
 
I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.
 
Re:

aphronesis said:
I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.
That's a bit circular isn't it? If you vote for people who (promise) to make the change that you want, they (might) change the system to work more like you want. I would also assert that you can't change the system if you don't change the people...you have to vote to do that. I think that we agree that voting isn't the 'only' action, but it is the end action. Are you implying that it is possible to make real change without voting?
 
I fail to see the circularity. The “system” is everything in this society: media, money, politics, culture, values, relations.

Voting is like getting your teeth cleaned. Something you do, but incidental. The work is everywhere else. Yes, one cann effect change in others without voting but you may as well go do it. So the activists say. At the same time people say Trump is or has power, but they need to realize that’s not where all the power is.
 
Re:

aphronesis said:
I revel in the disaster that he is if it forces people out of their passivity.


@dirt, it’s more than rhetoric: changing the people and the system means changing the discourse of what people take as normative and possible, not just changing the people in the system. I put this stuff out there and kids run with it. You want to just go vote. Go vote. Why discuss at all then. Your part is finished.

The above arguments have been being made by complacent democrats since the 80s. How many decades do you need.
What stuff, what kids?
To where, to whom are they running? What is the fruit of their labor, thus far?
 
Re:

aphronesis said:
I fail to see the circularity. The “system” is everything in this society: media, money, politics, culture, values, relations.

Voting is like getting your teeth cleaned. Something you do, but incidental. The work is everywhere else. Yes, one cann effect change in others without voting but you may as well go do it. So the activists say. At the same time people say Trump is or has power, but they need to realize that’s not where all the power is.
What kind of activism? Great word ... but where’s the ... protein?
 
AOC again doing a Donald..using a finite work day to rebutting if she "hired" her boyfriend.
And the all important topic of minorities underrepresented in drug dealing..she looks to be setting the stage for the government to possibly give seed money for pot selling businesses. I hope nobody tossed a rock in a nearby bush that would distract her into a chase of sorts..or a shiny object that could get her to spend precious congressional minutes on finding the source of the distraction.
Doesn't this gal have a publicist? If no get one. Leave this stuff to the Donald
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ocasio-cortez-diverity-cannabis-industry_n_5c676fcce4b05c889d1f6cfc
 
Re:

aphronesis said:
I fail to see the circularity. The “system” is everything in this society: media, money, politics, culture, values, relations.

Voting is like getting your teeth cleaned. Something you do, but incidental. The work is everywhere else. Yes, one cann effect change in others without voting but you may as well go do it. So the activists say. At the same time people say Trump is or has power, but they need to realize that’s not where all the power is.
Come on aphro, being disingenuous doesn't move your point forward. We are in a USA politics thread, so we are clearly discussing the political system. Sure the other things on your list are part of politics and a greater system, but that isn't the discussion at hand.

Maybe part of what you were saying earlier is being active at a local level. I write letters/emails to my state politicians, I have served on multiple open space committees, I have served on trail advisory committees, I have consulted with state and county task forces, I have spoken with the mayor about historical preservation...that's all great, but if the politicians that I/we encounter don't agree with us, we need to vote someone in who does.
 
Re:

Robert5091 said:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-47269887
President Trump has told the UK and other European allies to take back and put on trial more than 800 Islamic State (IS) group fighters captured in the final battle against the group.
When the US cann't even find a prison "secure enough" for the Gitmo prisoners on the mainland then it's a bit friggin rich. The "trials" are also a farce.
He's probably right on this one, despite this statement being intended for domestic ingestion and with a domestic political expediency rather than anything outwith. I suppose it depends on the whose prisoners they are and the legalities of "taking them back", but beyond that, yeah, I would rather these people were subjected to some agency of their respective states than not.

We've had a case of a jihadi bride in a Syrian camp hit the UK headlines this week. The commentary from certain camps has been unedifying.
 
Back in 2015 in Sweden a 15 year old ran away with her 19 year old boyfriend to Syria to join ISIS. 8 months pregnant she escaped to Mosul and reurned to Sweden - Swedish newspaper report at
https://www.expressen.se/gt/svensk-15-arig-flicka-fritagen-fran-is/

and there's a two part documentary which was shown on TV as well which fills in a lot of the gaps.

Do you try and charge them with travelling to Syria? Joining IS? Or breaking Syrian laws or Iraqi laws? In which case they should be jailed there and not in the EU.
 
This is US and world politics.. US officials are calling for countries to take back citizens that have fought a ISIS and other groups. IS saying countries like UK,Belgium,Holland to bring the fighters to court in the country where they have citizenship. US also saying that leaving detainees in limbo puts the risk into play of knowledgeable fighters back into the soldiering ranks.
The most popular stories about minor girls that went to Syria to become wives of fighters. The political and cultural fear here in America is that giving someone their day in court also allows the accused to speak.
No soldier currently in detention would be completely stupid to think that they won't be convicted of something if they were returned to the US and be tried in court on some version of was crimes.
American military professionals know that a man with nothing to loss should be feared but they don't want the public at large to think about it.
Just another slimy point of the immigration reform crisis..if an American denounces their citizenship,burns their passport, takes up the fight against US, American allies what type of justice is due? Are they still Americans? Are they subject to military or civilian law?
 
Re:

My point was unlike the US which happily sends people off to Gitmo to rot, EU countries would have to find some law that was broken to throw people coming back from Syria into jail.

Unchained said:
Just another slimy point of the immigration reform crisis..if an American denounces their citizenship,burns their passport, takes up the fight against US, American allies what type of justice is due? Are they still Americans? Are they subject to military or civilian law?
Or if you're Lee Harvey Oswald you get a job at the Leslie Welding Company. :)
 
https://nypost.com/2019/02/17/trump-rages-against-snl-after-latest-alec-baldwin-skit/

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8vQlhWBvAwY

This guy is a clown
Not sure why Democrats,freedom caucus,tea party,libertarians don't show a couple of simple graphs after a video of Trump body slamming Obama for days of golf played as president..his days on the links and the expense to taxpayers must be insulting at the very least.
Who is tracking tax payer dollars spent on legal issues with this load of schit? If !little black dresses were expensive and arduous to defend...omg..this clods bill must look astronomical!!!!
 
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-circulates-limbaugh-quote-calling-for-mueller-investigators-to-be-in-jail?ref=home
President Trump took to Twitter on Sunday to apparently circulate a call for the jailing of those who investigate him, including Special Counsel Robert Mueller. “‘These guys, the investigators, ought to be in jail. What they have done, working with the Obama intelligence agencies, is simply unprecedented,’” Trump wrote, quoting conservative pundit Rush Limbaugh. “‘This is one of the greatest political hoaxes ever perpetrated on the people of this Country, and Mueller is a coverup.’” He later added, in his own words, that “The Mueller investigation is totally conflicted, illegal and rigged! Should never have been allowed to begin, except for the Collusion and many crimes committed by the Democrats. Witch Hunt!”
Ok, so we've got the "national emergency" and now it's the "jail the investigators". Suspension of elections next, or the Supreme Court taken over by Rudi & Co, or rule by Executive Order?

Viva El Presidente! :D
 
Re:

Robert5091 said:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-circulates-limbaugh-quote-calling-for-mueller-investigators-to-be-in-jail?ref=home
President Trump took to Twitter on Sunday to apparently circulate a call for the jailing of those who investigate him, including Special Counsel Robert Mueller. “‘These guys, the investigators, ought to be in jail. What they have done, working with the Obama intelligence agencies, is simply unprecedented,’” Trump wrote, quoting conservative pundit Rush Limbaugh. “‘This is one of the greatest political hoaxes ever perpetrated on the people of this Country, and Mueller is a coverup.’” He later added, in his own words, that “The Mueller investigation is totally conflicted, illegal and rigged! Should never have been allowed to begin, except for the Collusion and many crimes committed by the Democrats. Witch Hunt!”
Ok, so we've got the "national emergency" and now it's the "jail the investigators". Suspension of elections next, or the Supreme Court taken over by Rudi & Co, or rule by Executive Order?

Viva El Presidente! :D
Don't forget 'retribution' against NBC for Alec Baldwin..trump is an idiot..
 

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