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May 27, 2012
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BillytheKid said:
As said...the Sub-prime lending (Community Reinvestment Act, signed into law under President Bill Clinton in 1993) which basically removed lending restrictions on housing mortgages and other lending to those of lower income to allow for the needs of housing of the poor, have lead to the current economic debacle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act

This act removed much the same restrictions as you impicity allude to having only existed elsewhere. I do disagree with sole blame to Capitalism. I think the deregulation was well intentioned philosophy of the Clinton left, however misguided and possibly aided by the corrupted who sought it's chance at short-term gain. My long post was in response to the statement that government action had no effect on the current economy. The rise of the British Empire was quite the enterprise, but we all got into the game. And the game still goes on.

Taken from the movie "The King's Speech"; Berty to his father: "We're not a family. We are a corporation."

This is nothing knew as the creation of the Knights Templar was financed in way that has been credited to the basis of the modern banking system.

However it can be noted that late in the Roman Empire, Rome to took to minting coin at a high rate, made of less precious metal. They too, faced the debacle of devaluation of currency. Many a times it has happened. I have no time to expand or accredit today.

A thesis statement; History leads to the understanding of economics.

Read it. Read many, but with a grain of salt.

John Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" Chapter 5. Solidly grounded historical fiction. The chapter stands on it's own as one of his removed and broad commentaries during the course of the novel. Steinbeck never misses the chance to point out human nature's influence over all human designs. Very powerful insight in my opinion, which it has influence greatly, and so, I never miss the chance to point out that political systems are only as good as the people who run them.
You don't know what you are talking about. CRA didn't create sub-prime lending, it existed prior to Clinton's change in CRA. Also, CRA didn't create Long Beach, Decision 1, New Century, or the hundreds of other truly sub-prime lenders who were not deposit bearing institutions and therefore had NOTHING to do with CRA. Your entire first paragraph is complete and utter bullsh!t. It actually isn't worth discussing further because it shows such a lack of understanding that there is no relevant point from which to begin explaining where you are wrong because it's all wrong and the theoretical basis for it is from another planet than the actual basis.

Again, just because Hannity says CRA caused the problem, and there is a Wikipedia reference to it doesn't make it true. A guy in one of my classes used Wikipedia as a reference recently...the task to which he was taken by the professor was both public and humiliating. Do everyone who does understand what happens a favor and quit posting about it. All you are doing is showing over and over that you don't actually understand what happened.
 
Sep 10, 2009
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BillytheKid said:
And never a mention of the influence of violent entertainment. It was the core of the thesis of the very first research paper I wrote in High School circa 1976. Go to a lager newspaper library in the U.S., if they don't have it digital, they will have it on microfiche, read the discussion and concern for the sudden raise of violent entertainment at the time, circa 1976. Yet the film's of that day would not even begin to satisfy the hunger of action in today's consumer.

You cannot solely blame guns. The raise of the Libertine and self-seekers here has had worst effect possible. Much of Hollywood sides with the left, profits economically from violent entertainment while claiming the moral high ground. "Surely, it is not I Lord."

Let's have vote. If you want to repeal the Second Amendment to the Bill rights, have your Party and The President start the proscess. That is most Democratic.

The NRA are well within their rights.

I know many of your Party who own guns, hunt at certain times of the year, and are good people. The greater concern are those who are isolated amid onslaught of the merchants of perversion. Too many fall to the depths of despair and depression. Start this day with an effort toward those who just need a bit of compassion. We avoid so much that only we can accomplish one to one.
Odd, Canadians, Australians, Europeans play the same violent video games as Americans do, watch the same Hollywood movies we do, they have the same drug problems, criminals, etc, yet we still have a gun-related death rate nearly 20 times they do. Why d'ya suppose that is? It's really very simple: unlike everyone else in the developed world, Americans have guns, thanks to the NRA-led twisted interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. That's the only difference.

I'd be perfectly fine with repealing the 2nd and treating guns the same way we do every other type of weaponry. No problem with that at all.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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okay I am out of the discussion if Velo, Hugh, or our favorite ex-pate in Italy want to discuss things. I am fine but there seems to be someone who just wants to bring a controversial subject up and stir it from all sides with nothing to add to the discussion.

As noted if any one wants to talk about the debate on guns just PM me. I don't like the written loose deification from a certain poster who brings nothing to a debate. Not he did in any other thread.
 
Jul 9, 2009
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ChewbaccaD said:
You don't know what you are talking about. All you are doing is showing over and over that you don't actually understand what happened.
L29205 said:
okay I am out of the discussion if Velo, Hugh, or our favorite ex-pate in Italy want to discuss things. I am fine but there seems to be someone who just wants to bring a controversial subject up and stir it from all sides with nothing to add to the discussion.

As noted if any one wants to talk about the debate on guns just PM me. I don't like the written loose deification from a certain poster who brings nothing to a debate. Not he did in any other thread.
Actually, I think Chewbie/TFF said it best (as he often does).
 
Nov 8, 2012
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88,000 jobs added in March. So this is what a recovery looks like, eh?

All by design.

Fraudulent policy begets fraudulent recovery. How nice.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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rhubroma said:
What happened was that finance created the illusion that the people can live above their means, according to the praxis of creative finance - and that that should have been regulated better. Everything else is just bullsh!t.

That political systems are only as good as the people who run them I don't dispute, but the question that begs to be asked is what system is governing them and consequently what animates the political class? It's all too facile to genuflect before "well intentioned" policy. Though there are more pressing problems, which exclusive economic analysis tend to overlook, such as the madness of nuclear deployment.

As per responsibility: the need for change and responsibility go hand in hand, thus the lack of change is irresponsible.
The praxis of creative finance is at the center of human nature. The two sides of that coin are the good and the bad. What if I were to say the praxis of Marxist Economics because, of our inclinations, is under influence of that of finance. Who of among us, especially when young, have never over indulged in something.

John Steinbeck's novel "In Dubious Battle," speaks on many levels. The surface story is so strongly in the point of view of Marxism and social justice that when I first read it, I would say sign me up. The later edition, with the long introduction from, Warren French, brings to the surface of the many doubts encrypted in a sweeping, passionate narrative.

French concludes that what is most dubious is the strikers' inability to overcome the massive resources of finance to crush the strike and therefore is the main trust of the novel, but Steinbeck went to great lengths to create a character who's final dialogue speaks out that once you've established a system, it is only a matter of time before human nature begins to corrupt the new order as it begins to eroded by the forces of darkness within those who govern it.

Steinbeck is often grounded in the biological as force that cannot be overcome.

The novel opens with a passage from Milton's "Paradise Lost:"

"Innumerable force the Spirits armed,
That durst dislike his reign, and, me preferring,
His utmost power with adverse power opposed
In dubious battle on the plains of Heaven
And shook his throne. What though the field to be lost?
All is not lost-the unconquerable will,
And study of revenge, immortal hate,
And courage never to submit or yield
And what is else not to be overcome?"

For me, Steinbeck's cut of Milton is interesting in the context of the novel it it precedes as it ends with the question "And what is else not to be overcome?" This, aside from the novel's title embedded therein.

Warren French's introduction is too much a critique of the work, gives to much away to the reader, and would, in my opinion, best belong as an afterword, but is well worth reading.

The BS of capitalistic finance is the same as BS of Marxism. Neither can escape human corruption unless they are always truly centered in the compassion we are all call too and not "the study of revenge, and immortal hate." "Where there is knowledge, it will fail..."
 
BillytheKid said:
The praxis of creative finance is at the center of human nature. The two sides of that coin are the good and the bad. What if I were to say the praxis of Marxist Economics because, of our inclinations, is under influence of that of finance. Who of among us, especially when young, have never over indulged in something.
I'm going to save myself the trouble of pretending to skim the rest of this thing and ask you what exactly the "praxis of Marxist Economics [sic] is"?

More importantly: how that praxis is under sway of finance? And the leap to being young? Can you go slowly and use some qualifiers?
 
Jun 1, 2011
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VeloCity said:
Odd, Canadians, Australians, Europeans play the same violent video games as Americans do, watch the same Hollywood movies we do, they have the same drug problems, criminals, etc, yet we still have a gun-related death rate nearly 20 times they do. Why d'ya suppose that is? It's really very simple: unlike everyone else in the developed world, Americans have guns, thanks to the NRA-led twisted interpretation of the 2nd Amendment. That's the only difference.

I'd be perfectly fine with repealing the 2nd and treating guns the same way we do every other type of weaponry. No problem with that at all.
If the Second Amendment of the bill of rights is twisted. Then it needs to be repealed or amended by the due process of the Constitution, and that is accomplished by a direct vote of the people, state by state, and not of the just the elect. The elect only bring the process about. That is not the process which your party pursues because it knows that in does not have the votes.

Such a safeguard could have only been in mind against tyranny in all the Bill of Rights. Tyranny is not in realm of the distant past, unfortunately it is alive and well as many armed conflicts today that seek to overthrow tyranny. Tyrants fear the armed. Tyrants never view themselves as being tyrants. As I have just alluded to above, all human designs have always fallen to that which is in our nature. Good intentions can go adrift and so often do.

Gun ownership in Europe and elsewhere is not the same as in the United States. They have no Second Amendment. Guns are much more restricted. The volume of guns here and gun violence results only in the a bad mix with the entertainment industry's lust for money that corrupts all morals and with those who fall to despair.

The element Sodium is highly reactive. Throw a handful into a pond and you will empty the half of it in the resulting explosion. Combine with the element chloride (the moral) it becomes salt, harmless and an essential electrolyte in the human metabolism.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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ChewbaccaD said:
Way to quote Wikipedia...

Too bad you take the ignorant, expedient tack on the subject.

Let me let you in on a secret: CRA bound ONLY those banks who were deposit bearing institutions. Most of the truly non-conforming loans were done by banks that had no deposits, thus were COMPLETELY exempt from CRA guidelines. How do I know? It's what I did for a living. It was a PRIVATE MARKET failure more than anything. Sure there are a lots of people like you who suggest that the governmental policy encouraged a lax market for loans, but the reality is that neither the government, nor anyone else held a gun to the heads of the PRIVATE investors who were setting underwriting guidelines for trillions of dollars in loans that were never subject governmental policy or Fannie/Freddie guidelines at all.

Sorry, the biggest failure in that market was the market. Thinking otherwise is for people who don't actually understand what went on.
Ah yes, a minor oversight of those who so well crafted CRA? Were they too ignorant?
 
May 27, 2012
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BillytheKid said:
Ah yes, a minor oversight of those who so well crafted CRA? Were they too ignorant?
Irrelevant. CRA was not the problem. This private market you so worship was the problem. Thanks for acknowledging that fact.
 
Jul 4, 2009
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ChewbaccaD said:
I think a stopped clock has a better average though...:)
If I was going to make a time reference I would say it would be an old digital clock that lost power and came back on. It sits flashing the same thing again and again. :D
 
Mar 17, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
Here is the problem;

People Not In Labor Force Soar By 663,000 To 90 Million, Labor Force Participation Rate At 1979 Levels





And constant attacks on producers won't fix this.

I saw that rocket scientist Richard Trumka is standing with fast food workers demanding a raise to $15 an hour. F'ing brilliant, that one.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-05/people-not-labor-force-soar-663000-90-million-labor-force-participation-rate-1979-le
you got a problem with a $12.00 big mac?
 
Jun 1, 2011
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ChewbaccaD said:
Irrelevant. CRA was not the problem. This private market you so worship was the problem. Thanks for acknowledging that fact.
So you think by my POV, I worship the private market? You miss the point. In big Government (I know that's just a catch phrase often used by the far right), but let us say, the socialistic governments and big business are much the same as they often default to failings of self preservation inclined in human kind. That is a socio-historical point of view.

I've lived my share of big business gluttons, but for for me big business and "big government" are the same. Czar Nicolas II of was surrounded by a huge bureaucracy. It was the opinion of a professor of mine, Nicolas had no idea of the vast poverty in "his" country was facing. His travel routes were often cleared of the example of it by the government apparatus. The bureaucrats sought to protect their jobs by giving the false impression that all was well. Nilolai Gogal's "The Overcoat" was used as an example of the self-seeking mindset of the bureaucrats. It was also pointed out that Soviet Russia inherited the same mindset in its governance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Overcoat

The jesters of courts so to speak. Their human traits and failings cannot to be quantified by diagrams, the laws of economics and pie charts. Big business acts much in the same way as CEOs have their own yes men. It is to say that self-seeking, in its many aspect, is the root of the problem and all political and economic structures eventually fall to it.

Political systems are always argue to be the solution. U.S. history is ripe with the same examples, yet I think, at it core the U.S. Constitution and there in the Bill of Rights, as many with similar democratic governments have the right ideal. They have been and are of many fronts assailed by the self-seekers. Many Republicans have valid points as they to propose the ideal of the revival small business system, but many also are fooled by the fact the many small businesses are tax dodges or investment companies that have no real interest in investing in a workforce. Don't forget the Hillary Clinton once sat on the board of Wal Mart. At it's inception, that company's ideals seemed fair, but in my opinion, they have gone the way of much of corporate America as they don't treat their workers very well.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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L29205 said:
If I was going to make a time reference I would say it would be an old digital clock that lost power and came back on. It sits flashing the same thing again and again. :D
A nice allusion to that of the Democratic mindset as well. Picture it as two clocks blinking away at each other.:rolleyes:
 
Nov 8, 2012
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patricknd said:
you got a problem with a $12.00 big mac?
Don't eat a lot of Big Macs... but those on the lower rungs of the socio economic ladder do.

Trumka just wants back door confiscatory redistributionist policies to torpedo the poor and poor working class.

Who gets wealthy when Big Macs are $12? Certainly not the poor schmucks buying them. Same could be said for cigarettes.



Policy making Liberals... against regressive taxation except when they are for it.


Oh, and why stop at $15 an hour? How about $50?
 
Jun 1, 2011
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Scott SoCal said:
Don't eat a lot of Big Macs... but those on the lower rungs of the socio economic ladder do.

Trumka just wants back door confiscatory redistributionist policies to torpedo the poor and poor working class.

Who gets wealthy when Big Macs are $12? Certainly not the poor schmucks buying them. Same could be said for cigarettes.



Policy making Liberals... against regressive taxation except when they are for it.


Oh, and why stop at $15 an hour? How about $50?
It will be because the currency is in a death spiral. Don't look now but wing just fell off the plane.
 
May 27, 2012
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BillytheKid said:
So you think by my POV, I worship the private market? You miss the point. In big Government (I know that's just a catch phrase often used by the far right), but let us say, the socialistic governments and big business are much the same as they often default to failings of self preservation inclined in human kind. That is a socio-historical point of view.

I've lived my share of big business gluttons, but for for me big business and "big government" are the same. Czar Nicolas II of was surrounded by a huge bureaucracy. It was the opinion of a professor of mine, Nicolas had no idea of the vast poverty in "his" country was facing. His travel routes were often cleared of the example of it by the government apparatus. The bureaucrats sought to protect their jobs by giving the false impression that all was well. Nilolai Gogal's "The Overcoat" was used as an example of the self-seeking mindset of the bureaucrats. It was also pointed out that Soviet Russia inherited the same mindset in its governance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Overcoat

The jesters of courts so to speak. Their human traits and failings cannot to be quantified by diagrams, the laws of economics and pie charts. Big business acts much in the same way as CEOs have their own yes men. It is to say that self-seeking, in its many aspect, is the root of the problem and all political and economic structures eventually fall to it.

Political systems are always argue to be the solution. U.S. history is ripe with the same examples, yet I think, at it core the U.S. Constitution and there in the Bill of Rights, as many with similar democratic governments have the right ideal. They have been and are of many fronts assailed by the self-seekers. Many Republicans have valid points as they to propose the ideal of the revival small business system, but many also are fooled by the fact the many small businesses are tax dodges or investment companies that have no real interest in investing in a workforce. Don't forget the Hillary Clinton once sat on the board of Wal Mart. At it's inception, that company's ideals seemed fair, but in my opinion, they have gone the way of much of corporate America as they don't treat their workers very well.
The sin of the CEO is greed and pride. Poor people cannot elect CEO's because they can't afford the stock, they can only take the sh!t pay the offer and like it.

The sin of the elected official is pride and greed. Poor people, at least until the Republicans disenfranchise more of them, can vote for politicians.

It's an imperfect system, but government always has been, right?
 
May 27, 2012
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BillytheKid said:
A nice allusion to that of the Democratic mindset as well. Picture it as two clocks blinking away at each other.:rolleyes:
Picture 6 year old children making those clocks because their tiny little hands do the detail work better and you can pay their parents sh!t wages and say the kids are a Happy Meal if they want to continue to be employed...a nice allusion to that of the Republican mindset.
 
ChewbaccaD said:
The sin of the CEO is greed and pride. Poor people cannot elect CEO's because they can't afford the stock, they can only take the sh!t pay the offer and like it.

The sin of the elected official is pride and greed. Poor people, at least until the Republicans disenfranchise more of them, can vote for politicians.

It's an imperfect system, but government always has been, right?
power is always unequal, but for some time rule, government and sovereignty were separate and largely separated from monetary economies. obviously this is less and less the case.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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Lol

Tax Lobby Builds Ties to Chairman of Finance Panel

Restaurant chains like McDonald’s want to keep their lucrative tax credit for hiring veterans. Altria, the tobacco giant, wants to cut the corporate tax rate. And Sapphire Energy, a small alternative energy company, is determined to protect a tax incentive it believes could turn algae into a popular motor fuel.
No other lawmaker on Capitol Hill has such a sizable constellation of former aides working as tax lobbyists, representing blue-chip clients that include telecommunications businesses, oil companies, retailers and financial firms, according to an analysis by LegiStorm, an online database that tracks Congressional staff members and lobbying. At least 28 aides who have worked for Mr. Baucus, Democrat of Montana, since he became the committee chairman in 2001 have lobbied on tax issues during the Obama administration — more than any other current member of Congress, according to the analysis of lobbying filings performed for The New York Times.
Everyone gets a piece of the pie at the cost of the general public:

- Staffers who jump ship to accumulate great wealth in the private sector. Jobs they get after a couple of years on the Hill, because of their Rolodex;
- the private sector which fortifies elected officials' war chests for the next election (which they will just pass on to consumers in the form of higher prices) and who will see benefits in the form of free market distortions (tax credits; subsidies; interest free loans/bonds)
- Elected officials who can spend an extra couple of millions on trashing opponents with ugly ads


The National Restaurant Association, whose board includes a senior McDonald’s executive, had three former aides to Mr. Baucus working on tax-related matters, including Patrick Heck, who once held the post of chief tax counsel to Mr. Baucus. The association helped secure three provisions in the January deal, worth an estimated $5.9 billion over the next decade to restaurants and other companies.
Lavishing money on elected officials to vote in their interest (or just take up legislation that benefits them) is just a business expense.
Benefit: 5.9 Billion over 10 years, pool some money together with your industry pals and it doesn't even have to cost that much per company;
Cost: a couple of millions to persuade some lawmakers and help them secure their next election.
 
Jun 1, 2011
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ChewbaccaD said:
Picture 6 year old children making those clocks because their tiny little hands do the detail work better and you can pay their parents sh!t wages and say the kids are a Happy Meal if they want to continue to be employed...a nice allusion to that of the Republican mindset.
Plenty of Democrats of that same mindset. Why?

Wait! I already addressed the answer, but you have no rebuttal and cling to the lockstep of party mind set of "Us and Them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Yayz5o-l0
 
Jun 1, 2011
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ChewbaccaD said:
Picture 6 year old children making those clocks because their tiny little hands do the detail work better and you can pay their parents sh!t wages and say the kids are a Happy Meal if they want to continue to be employed...a nice allusion to that of the Republican mindset.
Plenty of Democrats of that same mindset. Why?

Wait! I've already addressed the answer, but you have no rebuttal and cling to the lockstep of party mindset of "Us and Them."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Yayz5o-l0

But do not fall to despair in the face of it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qH0iFkxQba4
 
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