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So if Jonas stays on his bike Pogacar can't beat him.
If Pogacar stays on his bike Jonas can't beat him.
It's all fine even if both stay on their bikes: then we would have a draw OFC (with a precision of 0.01 s).
I think that always was the case to be frank.
The numbers back that Vingegaard is closer to Remco than he is Teddy after this level it just does now, doesn't have to make it harder than it is, looking at the past will always or usually get you nowhere.
But I see people are up in their feels about this so ill leave you too it.
Only if he stays on his bike, which is pure Sci-Fi scanario.
Riders with most top2 finishes (together) in Grand Tours:
Coppi & Bartali 4 (3xGiro, 1xTour)
Pogacar & Vingegaard 4 (4xTour)
This is truly a historic rivalry but not yet as legendary as the other. Look at some of Bartali's quotes (on Coppi):
But all the same fatigue could even mark his organism. Certain traces did not escape the critical eye that I had. I studied every centimeter of his hide. I knew it almost as well as my own. As team captain in 1940 I had explained my weak points to the team. At that time I was far from supposing that I was exposing myself to a rival. It was necessary to discover his vulnerabilities. At last, one day, my endless scrutiny was rewarded. In the hollow of his right knee a vein inflated along five or six centimeters. This happened between kilometers 160 and 18O of a race. At this moment I knew Fausto was vulnerable.
I needed to be sure, so I assigned my faithful Giovannino Corrieri to look for the vein during the 1948 Tour of Italy. The moment Corrieri saw the sign he came dashing through the peleton to me, shouting, 'The vein! The vein!' No one knew what he meant, of course, but when I heard those words I attacked. At the finish line Fausto was four minutes back.
The first thing was to make sure I always stayed at the same hotel for a race, and to have the room next to his so I could mount a surveillance. I would watch him leave with his mates, then I would tiptoe into the room which ten seconds earlier had been his headquarters. I would rush to the waste bin and the bedside table, go through the bottles, flasks, phials, tubes, cartons, boxes, suppositories – I swept up everything.
I became so expert in interpreting all these pharmaceuticals that I could predict how Fausto would behave during the course of the stage. I would work out, according to the traces of the product I found, how and when he would attack me
Legendary stuff!
This year's comments (Vingegaard is afraid of me, Last year I gained 7 minutes in 2 stages so the power is there) is a step in the right direction though.
Coppi & Bartali 4 (3xGiro, 1xTour)
Pogacar & Vingegaard 4 (4xTour)
This is truly a historic rivalry but not yet as legendary as the other. Look at some of Bartali's quotes (on Coppi):
But all the same fatigue could even mark his organism. Certain traces did not escape the critical eye that I had. I studied every centimeter of his hide. I knew it almost as well as my own. As team captain in 1940 I had explained my weak points to the team. At that time I was far from supposing that I was exposing myself to a rival. It was necessary to discover his vulnerabilities. At last, one day, my endless scrutiny was rewarded. In the hollow of his right knee a vein inflated along five or six centimeters. This happened between kilometers 160 and 18O of a race. At this moment I knew Fausto was vulnerable.
I needed to be sure, so I assigned my faithful Giovannino Corrieri to look for the vein during the 1948 Tour of Italy. The moment Corrieri saw the sign he came dashing through the peleton to me, shouting, 'The vein! The vein!' No one knew what he meant, of course, but when I heard those words I attacked. At the finish line Fausto was four minutes back.
The first thing was to make sure I always stayed at the same hotel for a race, and to have the room next to his so I could mount a surveillance. I would watch him leave with his mates, then I would tiptoe into the room which ten seconds earlier had been his headquarters. I would rush to the waste bin and the bedside table, go through the bottles, flasks, phials, tubes, cartons, boxes, suppositories – I swept up everything.
I became so expert in interpreting all these pharmaceuticals that I could predict how Fausto would behave during the course of the stage. I would work out, according to the traces of the product I found, how and when he would attack me
Legendary stuff!
This year's comments (Vingegaard is afraid of me, Last year I gained 7 minutes in 2 stages so the power is there) is a step in the right direction though.
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That Bartali quote is insane. You could never make that up, shows the ruthlessness needed to be a god tier champion
IMHO, Visma and Vingegaard thought they had Pogi.
They measured the w/kg, they took the last 2 years as the probable scenario and they went all in.
Now, this ***: I am a winner just to be here.
Please, stop this nonsense.
Vingegaard knows, Visma team know: he only started the Tour thinking we would kill Pogi like last year.
But guess what? Pogi had different plans, and he smoked Vingegaard.
Visma never had imagined Pogacar would put the crazy numbers he did.
And after that Stage 15, Pogi broke the Danish mentally, as the latter broke the former last year.
The rest? Only excuses by the sore losers: Visma and Vingegaard.
They measured the w/kg, they took the last 2 years as the probable scenario and they went all in.
Now, this ***: I am a winner just to be here.
Please, stop this nonsense.
Vingegaard knows, Visma team know: he only started the Tour thinking we would kill Pogi like last year.
But guess what? Pogi had different plans, and he smoked Vingegaard.
Visma never had imagined Pogacar would put the crazy numbers he did.
And after that Stage 15, Pogi broke the Danish mentally, as the latter broke the former last year.
The rest? Only excuses by the sore losers: Visma and Vingegaard.
They knew his power, took Pogacar's from last year and thought it would be enough if Vingo shakes off the rust and limits early losses. That's why they took him to the Tour in the first place, to get the victory. Vingo's and Visma's comments (being happy about losing only 1 minute with all big mountain stages ahead, recalling gaining 7 minutes in 2 stages) confirmed their confidence for the second half of the race.
Before the Pyrenees their hopes still seemed justified (esp. after Vingo survived gravel and caught Pog in the Massif Central) only to be shell shocked when long climbs finally arrived and Pog showed unreal level. Especially PdB was a punch in Visma's face. They prepared their tactics and form well, Grischa likely shouted the password, Vingo performed a super-strong attack and then...boom, Teddy is far away but... ahead, not behind, WTF? I'd love to see Grischa's face then, maybe they will show it on Netflix!
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But Jonas wasn't at his best, only at last years level.
His best performance ever on PdB and he confirmed this adding that he was at a very high level in the first two weeks. Preparations shortcomings likely caught up with him during some stages (stage 19 being probably his lowest point in the race).
Think how good he could've been, hadn't he crashed.
Saying Vignegaard had far less optimal prep is factually true. Much like the same as last year with Pogacar having a far less optimal prep. Whether optimal prep for either would have made a difference to either last year or this year’s results is pure speculation.
Both have shown an ability to beat and ‘kill off’ the other. Neither is mentally ‘weak’ or has the upper hand over the other in that regard. They have contrasting styles and characters but there is no doubt they have each pushed each other to be better as a result of the other. There will always be bright new stars emerging but it is difficult to see anyone who can break the duopoly in the next 2/3 years assuming they both stay on their bikes.
Both have shown an ability to beat and ‘kill off’ the other. Neither is mentally ‘weak’ or has the upper hand over the other in that regard. They have contrasting styles and characters but there is no doubt they have each pushed each other to be better as a result of the other. There will always be bright new stars emerging but it is difficult to see anyone who can break the duopoly in the next 2/3 years assuming they both stay on their bikes.
Yeah that’s the thing. These guys are constantly improving and never just aiming at reproducing last years numbers. We can only speculate on what would have happened without crashes or if Pogi didn’t do Flanders.
At the end of the day though, no amount of speculation can take away from Pogi’s brilliant performances or his win(not that anyone has been trying to do that); just like the reverse situation in 2023 can’t diminish Vingegaard’s win.
hopefully none of them crashes next spring and we can have a bit more competitive TdF next term and the duel can carry on for years to come.
in the secret rabobank underground hq professors already working on vein-watch technology
UAE counter measure: send pogi to race in a djellaba
Sure, it's clear that Vingo underperformed during some key moments of the race (i.e. stage 19, also likely stage 14). How much better he could've been is speculation of course,. Some say he would've beaten even this Pogacar, some say he would've still lost. It's kinda fun for fans.
We should definitely appreciate this already historical rivalry (matching Coppi/Bartali in GT "doubles" and on its way to smash the record) and look forward to the next chapter. I don't doubt that 2025 will deliver again and any outcome is realistic.
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One was not like the other. Pogi could walk away from his crash and was driven away in the team car. Vingegaard didn't stand on his feet for at least 8 days, as he was bedridden in the ICU with tubes in his lungs.
The chest tube goes in the pleural space between your lungs and ribs.
It was like the other in the sense that it wasn’t ideal preparation to a big season defining bike race.
But your obviously right that what happened to Vingo was far less ideal.
Oh i understand that the point remains though about both having sub optimal prep. Pogacar could not begin to ride outside until June. Vignegaard could ride outside earlier but of course his recovery were from far more serious underlying injuries and had been off the bike completely longer than Pog had been , the point about sub optimal prep was that which i was making
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