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What about support staff? The Piña situation.

What about support staff? The Piña situation.

How is it possible for someone who has been involved in two previous teams that had extensive doping programs to still be around to dirty up the sport?

Alvaro Piña was at both Kelme and Phonak, two teams that reportedly had systematic doping going on. Now he is once again linked to a team that has positive riders.

Isn't there any rules in place that can ban dirty support staff from being involved in the sport so that we can get rid of the people behind the dopers as well?

Or is it simply a case of not having enough evidence directly linking people to cheating.

I think it's obvious that things need to improve in this regard. One thing could be to introduce a system where team management and team doctors get direct responsibility for someone on their team getting caught. For example if someone gets caught on any type of stronger doping the managers and doctors each get a strike regardless of how the rider doped. When a person has gotten something like three strikes they get suspended for two years. If they come back and get two more strikes they are gone for life.
 
ingsve said:
How is it possible for someone who has been involved in two previous teams that had extensive doping programs to still be around to dirty up the sport?

Alvaro Piña was at both Kelme and Phonak, two teams that reportedly had systematic doping going on. Now he is once again linked to a team that has positive riders.

Isn't there any rules in place that can ban dirty support staff from being involved in the sport so that we can get rid of the people behind the dopers as well?

Or is it simply a case of not having enough evidence directly linking people to cheating.

I think it's obvious that things need to improve in this regard. One thing could be to introduce a system where team management and team doctors get direct responsibility for someone on their team getting caught. For example if someone gets caught on any type of stronger doping the managers and doctors each get a strike regardless of how the rider doped. When a person has gotten something like three strikes they get suspended for two years. If they come back and get two more strikes they are gone for life.

There's never smoke without fire is there? These Pinos could use some more spotlight.

Xacobeo's sacked doctor accused Pino back in April of "only being able to understand cycling with doping."

Nice. And now the guy can retire in peace with his nice pot of Kelme, Phonak and Xacobeo dividends.
 
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so know you want to ban riders based on previous teams ? What if the rider was clean, wasn't Evans meant to be clean on Telekom which was a dirty team.

Wouldn't it be a good idea if there was some sort of drug testing done at races and also outside of races. You could maybe use the results of those tests and if riders fail them ban them from the sport :D
 
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THe sports full of suport staff with dodgy histories...some public knowledge, most not, without some diging.
The most blatant case bein Bjan Riis. Tour "winner", self confesed EPO user and now a top DS.
Being " in the know" and keeping to the script is pretty much the only way in to being support staff. And it helps if theres known dirt on ya ...keeps ya in line.
 
sherer said:
so know you want to ban riders based on previous teams ? What if the rider was clean, wasn't Evans meant to be clean on Telekom which was a dirty team.

Wouldn't it be a good idea if there was some sort of drug testing done at races and also outside of races. You could maybe use the results of those tests and if riders fail them ban them from the sport :D

Out-of-competition testing does happen and that has caught a few riders here and there.

I think the interesting thing here is that, as we've seen in pretty much every case where an investigation has delved into the shadows behind the riders there's a complex mesh of people and processes - whether or not the doping is institutional. At this point, beyond the bald truths of science, things are much harder to prove.

You get a long list of curious nobodys like Bin Yamin, Kozlitine, Ficek, Madejak, Vernie and Landuyt coming out of the woodwork. These people deserve more airtime, walking away with at best a scintilla of doubt about them and at worst suspended sentences and an itty bitty fine.

I think we would all agree that the whole testing/justice system is rider-centric, but many of us would also agree that there's evidence to suggest that the doping system is not always rider-driven.
 
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L'arriviste said:
Out-of-competition testing does happen and that has caught a few riders here and there.

I was being sarcastic to the OP based on their ridiculous comment that riders should be banned based on past teams. Why not ban whole regions we all know Portugal is just as dodgy as Kelme so ban the nation. Spain and Holland are dodgy too so they would go as well.

It's not perfect but you have to rely on the tests not heresay and rumour and who you think may have doped in the past
 
sherer said:
I was being sarcastic to the OP based on their ridiculous comment that riders should be banned based on past teams. Why not ban whole regions we all know Portugal is just as dodgy as Kelme so ban the nation. Spain and Holland are dodgy too so they would go as well.

It's not perfect but you have to rely on the tests not heresay and rumour and who you think may have doped in the past

Fair enough and of course you're right. :)

To address the thread title, what do you think about Pino, a man who has been allowed to preside over two institutional doping programmes and now this, his team leader getting busted? After all, he gets to retire now and go quietly about the business of his life.

For example, should managers be barred from running a team just like bad company directors cannot run companies for six years?
 
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L'arriviste said:
Fair enough and of course you're right. :)

To address the thread title, what do you think about Pino, a man who has been allowed to preside over two institutional doping programmes and now this, his team leader getting busted? After all, he gets to retire now and go quietly about the business of his life.

For example, should managers be barred from running a team just like bad company directors cannot run companies for six years?

I agree there, I think the problem is that a lot of the DSs etc in the teams are all from the old guard of cycling. When they raced it was part of the you had to dope to even finish as such they pass that process on to the new generation and nothing changes.

You need to be careful and work out what is a team doping and what is organised doping from the management. Supposed the lead rider of the team organised it and gave dope to his teammates should the DS be banned then and how would you tell ?

Saiz leaving the sport was good and Pevenage should be banned with him as should all the other doping DSs etc out there. The UCI needs to start a licence program for ALL staff on teams
 
sherer said:
so know you want to ban riders based on previous teams ? What if the rider was clean, wasn't Evans meant to be clean on Telekom which was a dirty team.

Wouldn't it be a good idea if there was some sort of drug testing done at races and also outside of races. You could maybe use the results of those tests and if riders fail them ban them from the sport :D

No, not riders but support staff. Right now it seems that if a team manager or docter etc. helps someone cheat there is no consequences for them.
 
sherer said:
I was being sarcastic to the OP based on their ridiculous comment that riders should be banned based on past teams. Why not ban whole regions we all know Portugal is just as dodgy as Kelme so ban the nation. Spain and Holland are dodgy too so they would go as well.

It's not perfect but you have to rely on the tests not heresay and rumour and who you think may have doped in the past

And if you read it again you'll see that nowhere did I talk about riders.
 
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ingsve said:
And if you read it again you'll see that nowhere did I talk about riders.

You are still claiming someone should be banned based on the fact their teams are "dodgy".

How do you know it wasn't the riders that led the doping culture and nothing to do with Pina ?

What we need is a licencing system for the staff as well as the riders
 

mastersracer

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sherer said:
You are still claiming someone should be banned based on the fact their teams are "dodgy".

How do you know it wasn't the riders that led the doping culture and nothing to do with Pina ?

What we need is a licencing system for the staff as well as the riders

no, we need lifetime bans for anyone implicated in doping, including riders, support staff, and management.
 
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mastersracer said:
no, we need lifetime bans for anyone implicated in doping, including riders, support staff, and management.

so I can just go to the UCI and the press and say I think xx is doping or making their riders dope and they get banned. great idea on the last day of the TdF the lantern rouge can implicate all the other riders and win the race :D

What we need is due process and proper investigations by a non corrupt independent body and a licencing system that does exclude people who break the rules of that licence. Not sure ban people based on here say and implications
 
sherer said:
You are still claiming someone should be banned based on the fact their teams are "dodgy".

How do you know it wasn't the riders that led the doping culture and nothing to do with Pina ?

What we need is a licencing system for the staff as well as the riders

Well, it's a suggestion since it would be very hard to prove direct involvement of a support staff. At least this way it's a strong incentive for the team management to have strict control over the riders of their team and be very careful about what riders they hire. Also it would only apply after several cases so even if the staff had nothing to do with it then they will be fine but at some point when lots of riders under their control has cheated you could probably claim negligence on the part of the management.

If anyone has any better ideas then I'm all for it but we need something to get non-riders who are involved in doping away from the sport.
 

mastersracer

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sherer said:
so I can just go to the UCI and the press and say I think xx is doping or making their riders dope and they get banned. great idea on the last day of the TdF the lantern rouge can implicate all the other riders and win the race :D

What we need is due process and proper investigations by a non corrupt independent body and a licencing system that does exclude people who break the rules of that licence. Not sure ban people based on here say and implications

obviously implicated would be more than mere accusation.