What happened to Giro routes?

[Gigs_98]

Complaints about gc routes are much older than this forum but with the Giro in particular I think the criticism has become a lot stronger over the last few years. Some time ago I remember reading a discussion here about how the Giro has lost a lot of its prestige because its routes have become softer and I found that point very intriguing. In particular I started wondering about the last few editions seemingly have featured a lot fewer "legendary climbs". So I decided to have a look if that's just a gut feeling or actually backed up by numbers.

First of all I took a look at the hardest climbs the Giro has used this century. I used the profile index of cyclingcols and their list of the top 25 hardest climbs of Italy (flawed system, but not motivated enough to come up with a better one) and looked at the ones which have been used in the Giro since 2000. Also, if a climb was supposed to be used but the organizer had to cancel it I still include the climb in this list, since that's not the organizers fault. The climbs that have been used are:
Finestre, Zoncolan (West), Mortirolo (West), Fauniera, Stelvio (East), Forcola di Livigno, Manghen, Esischie, Agnello + the Galibier which is in France but was used in 2013. I didn't include Blockhaus because they don't climb it to the top and Pampeago because iirc they only climbed the second half. I hope I didn't forget any climbs.

Now let's see how many of these 10 climbs have been used (or were supposed to be used until weather intervened) in the last 10 editions. Again I'll probably forget some climbs here and there but hopefully not too many:
2000: 1 (Agnello)
2001: 1 (Fauniera)
2002: 0
2003: 1 (Esischie)
2004: 1 (Mortirolo)
2005: 2 (Stelvio, Finestre)
2006: 1 (Mortirolo)
2007: 2 (Agnello, Zoncolan)
2008: 2 (Manghen, Mortirolo)
2009: 0
2010: 3 (Focola di Livigno, Mortirolo, Zoncolan)
2011: 2 (Zoncolan, Finestre)
2012: 1 (Manghen) (I didn't make the calculation but I think the cut-off version of the Mortirolo they used is a bit too "easy")
2013: 1 (Galibier)
2014: 1 (Zoncolan)
2015: 2 (Mortirolo, Finestre)
2016: 1 (Agnello)
2017: 0
2018: 2 (Zoncolan, Finestre)
2019: 2 (Mortirolo, Manghen)
2020: 2 (Stelvio, Agnello)
2021: 0
2022: 0
2023: 0
2024: 0
2025: 1 (Finestre)
2026: 0

It is actually incredible how hard the cut post 2020 is. It's completely inexplicable why the organizers seemingly decided to no longer use their biggest assets, for no good reason. Perhaps also worth notin that since 2020 the Stelvio, Mortirolo and Zoncolan have actually been on the route combined 5 times, just from the easier side every single time. Well, if you need a place to vent about the development of giro routes, here's a thread for you.

 

[Red Rick]

flawed system, but not motivated enough to come up with a better one)

I am Petulant Whiners United, and I approve this methodology

Monte Grappa doesn't make the cut in 2014 or 2024?

 

[Gigs_98]

I am Petulant Whiners United, and I approve this methodology

Monte Grappa doesn't make the cut in 2014 or 2024?

Just misses out. I think the same side was used in 2010 too right? But the 2024 stage design was crappy anyway, so I'm happily putting the cut-off where I put it.

 

[Rob5091]

That feels better ....

 

[CyclistAbi]

I would say that 2023 edition hosted Svete Višarje (Monte Lussari) and that qualifies for the category as hard as it gets. As for feared climbs in general i agree they do add to prestige. One problem modern pro peloton currently has is such climbs are i guess too decisive, one rider or two making too big of a difference and i guess weather is a big problem. So if in the end it gets cancelled it's worse that if it was never scheduled in the first place.

 

[Red Rick]

Just misses out. I think the same side was used in 2010 too right? But the 2024 stage design was crappy anyway, so I'm happily putting the cut-off where I put it.

The cutoff if you descend is like 1km before the top.

Most of these climbs were always very rare, so I think it begs the question when these climbs were clearly there for the taking only to be skipped, and the main one you'll find is Mortirolo being skipped in 2022 and Zoncolan taken from the easier side in 2021 (differnet town paying?).

 

[Valv.Piti]

How close are Gavia, Giau and Colle San Carlo? Especially the latter I feel are harder than some of these climbs, and dno why that climb isn't being used more. We have had 2 meh Aosta stages last two year. At least they use Giau a lot

 

[YavorD]

@Gigs_98 In 2024 they actually intended to use Forcola di Livigno. Not sure how the Swiss decision not to open the pass makes in in your list, but it was indeed included in the original route.

Also, Gavia missing just to make the things worse.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Forgot about Crostis?

 

[ice&fire]

I'll complain against your methodology when Bormio 2017 or Monte Petrano 2009 go under the radar, and 2014 gets in because of the irrelevant role of Zoncolan instead of the two stages that really mattered in that edition: Gavia+Stelvio+Val Martello and Monte Grappa

 

[Red Rick]

I'll complain against your methodology when Bormio 2017 or Monte Petrano 2009 go under the radar, and 2014 gets in because of the irrelevant role of Zoncolan instead of the two stages that really mattered in that edition: Gavia+Stelvio+Val Martello and Monte Grappa

Yes, to me it seems more like a general effort to move away from huge mountain stages, although we've had some behemoths nerfed to smithereens in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2023.

You can ask if they're trying to soften routes so that the top dogs are more likely to try the Giro-TdF double. Aside from that, I don't think there's a specific conspiracy of avoiding a climb apart from avoiding Mortirolo in 2022 (maybe they thought it'd be too hard) and Gavia (every *** year they get near)

 

[ice&fire]

Yes, to me it seems more like a general effort to move away from huge mountain stages, although we've had some behemoths nerfed to smithereens in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2023.

You can ask if they're trying to soften routes so that the top dogs are more likely to try the Giro-TdF double. Aside from that, I don't think there's a specific conspiracy of avoiding a climb apart from avoiding Mortirolo in 2022 (maybe they thought it'd be too hard) and Gavia (every *** year they get near)

The temptation to appeal the top dogs is too strong when you think about the possibility of having Felix Gall in the Giro pantheon, right there, next to Ryder Hesjedal.

 

[Sciatic]

I'll complain against your methodology when Bormio 2017 or Monte Petrano 2009 go under the radar, and 2014 gets in because of the irrelevant role of Zoncolan instead of the two stages that really mattered in that edition: Gavia+Stelvio+Val Martello and Monte Grappa

He said it wasn’t his methodology for rating the climbs, just a tool he used for the chronological comparison.

 

[Squire]

Some time ago I remember reading a discussion here about how the Giro has lost a lot of its prestige because its routes have become softer and I found that point very intriguing.

I definitely wrote a post along those lines. 'The hardest race in the world's most beautiful place' has now become a 21-day glorified training camp for the Tour de France.

I would also be interested in ways to measure the 'popularity' or whatever you want to call it of the Giro nowadays compared to when we think it was at its peak (basically most of the 2010s) in terms of relative viewing numbers compared to other races, profits etc. And ways to know whether the presence of Vingegaard or Pogacar and the resulting completely uncompetitive GC actually has significant benefits that really makes it worth it for the organizer. Becaues with how the top riders only show up for a softer route as an appetizer to their main goal in July, it certainly doesn't increase the prestige of the race in general. Or at least that's what one would think.

 

[ice&fire]

He said it wasn’t his methodology for rating the climbs, just a tool he used for the chronological comparison.

Then I'll complain about the tool

 

[Gigs_98]

Forgot about Crostis?

Not cancelled due to weather

 

[Divergence]

It is actually pretty easy to design a good route. There are plenty of mountains in Italy and just use them. Then advertise the race as the one for the real road races, not some stages like today. That will kill two birds with one stone. Fist, we will get real road racing on TV and second we will not have to watch the ugly faces of Magnier and Milan on 2% bridges.

 

[Divergence]

I would also be interested in the viewership during today's stage compared to yesterday's. Does anyone have the statistics?

 

[ashhutch1997]

I've said this several times, the first period of Vegni's routes were excellent from 2015 - 2020, then they went downhill rapidly. IMO the best route I've seen in a Giro was 2015, and there weren't really any brutal stages, and probably the easiest queen stage between that period. But it had a very balanced route, which was littered with some awesome medium mountain stages, and the excellent hard climb/ easy climb combinations of the Mortirolo/ Aprica and Finestre/ Sestriere, as well as a monster ITT.
What's crazy is that we haven't had a Mortirolo/ Aprica since 2015, which IMO is the greatest combo in cycling.

 

[Red Rick]

I've said this several times, the first period of Vegni's routes were excellent from 2015 - 2020, then they went downhill rapidly. IMO the best route I've seen in a Giro was 2015, and there weren't really any brutal stages, and probably the easiest queen stage between that period. But it had a very balanced route, which was littered with some awesome medium mountain stages, and the excellent hard climb/ easy climb combinations of the Mortirolo/ Aprica and Finestre/ Sestriere.
What's crazy is that we haven't had a Mortirolo/ Aprica since 2015, which IMO is the greatest combo in cycling.

The 2015 - 2020 routes had their flaws, and I think most of those Giri overdelivered due to the specific fields and dynamics that unfolded.

 

[Red Rick]

I think just because of geography in italy is very hard to design a perfect 3 weeks. I think the design of a lot of individual stages has been appalling though.

Italy has better geography than France and Spain. You're never super far away from decent climbs, and unlike Spain you have a lot of great climbs that are also passes.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Italy has the most options of any of the GTs. But it's also the first, and comes directly after Classics season, which impacts the field it draws.

In the early 2000s, the Giro suffered a lot because a lot of the main Tour contenders raced a super-selective calendar with superpeaking schedules, meaning the Giro was largely a provincial affair, and they tried making things a bit easier to try (unsuccessfully) to attract more Tour contenders to attempt a Giro-Tour double. The nadir of this was the awful 2004 race, with 120km back to back mountain stages at the end, sprint stages in the double figures, and some of the poster figures for meaningless GT top 10s. There were some great stages in those editions, and the strength of Italian domestic cycling at the time propped it up, but there was a distinct lack of big names.

In the late 2000s, Angelo Zomegnan decided in response to this that rather than simplify to pander to the idea of a Giro-Tour double, if the big guns weren't going to come then he would make the Giro the hardest GT, so that it was more of a star on the palmarès. This resulted in a lot of chaos, the introduction of some monster climbs, the dying embers of the 260km mountain stage, rediscoveries like Rifugio Gardeccia, introduction of sterrato, and much spectacle - stages like the 2009 Cinque Terre TT, the 2010 sterrato and Mortirolo-Aprica stages, and the aforementioned Gardeccia stage in 2011 are highly revered and beloved. But they wiped the Giro-Tour double entirely from the map. Not only could you not do the double, you couldn't even come close. Menchov won the 2009 Giro and then finished in the 60s in the Tour. Carlos Sastre, a bastion of consistency in Grand Tours, won two major mountain stages in the Giro and ended up on the podium, but his Tour defence was over before it started. Franco Pellizotti won the GPM at the 2009 Tour, but only by making himself a GC irrelevance in the first week (and by creating biopassport irregularities that would see him banned). Cadel Evans wore the yellow jersey a week into the 2010 Tour, and then disappeared from relevance in the race in the second half as the fatigue caught him. Anybody with designs on the Tour didn't just have to avoid racing the Giro for GC... they more or less had to avoid it entirely.

Simultaneously you have the problem that the financial crisis absolutely gutted Italian domestic cycling; many smaller races are sadly missed (the Giro di Padania is also gone too, but that isn't) and many small teams have gone to the wall. Simultaneously, doping scandals hit several of the stalwart second-tier teams, the UCI tightened up the screws on their overseas registration and what the ProConti teams can and can't do after Cervélo and BMC exploited the level, and both doping-related suspensions, and teams' reactions to it, changed; fewer big name riders were getting banned, and since Liquigas with Basso and Astana with Vino abandoned it, the old informal quarantine at a lower level that ex-dopers faced became increasingly uncommon, cutting off a useful source of riders with name value for those domestic teams.

I just think that while making it stand out for its toughness helped rehabilitate its value for a number of years and this was carried over through the early years of Vegni's run at the helm, after a while it just started to hit against the same problem re star power that it had had back in the 2000s, just for a different reason. They still had the issue of nobody with serious designs on the Tour turning up, but with the domestic calendar gutted and Aru flaming out young, Italian cycling was just not churning out potential winners for the fans to get behind - nor did it have enough teams of requisite level to provide that home flair of years gone by. In the Zomegnan era, the organisers had too many viable Italian ProConti teams to invite them all, leading to riders like Giovanni Visconti, Giampaolo Caruso and Domenico Pozzovivo being unable to start their home race while lying in high spots in the world ranking. Come the late 2010s, the main Italian home interest is still Vincenzo Nibali and Domenico Pozzovivo, now in their late 30s, and the domestic teams are no more relevant to the GC than Saur-Sojasun or Agritubel were to the Tour de France GC in the late 2000s. And if you don't have the domestic star power to attract the crowds and sponsors, you need the international star power to do it... so scaring it off with difficulty is no good - hence the move back towards making the Giro-Tour double viable and trying to entice big names to appear even if it means simplifying the route to make it possible and the risk of being seen as kowtowing to the big teams and riders like it's an El Correo-El Pueblo Vasco-era Vuelta.

 

[Gigs_98]

How close are Gavia, Giau and Colle San Carlo? Especially the latter I feel are harder than some of these climbs, and dno why that climb isn't being used more. We have had 2 meh Aosta stages last two year. At least they use Giau a lot

They are not too that close actually. Gavia is the closest but I'm sure there are plenty of climbs in between the easiest of my 10 and Gavia. I also disagree that any of your three climbs are actually harder than the ones I mentioned. Concerning Giau, it's very hard but imo also very overrated. People consistently think of it as the kind of climb where a race will always explode, but except if its the last climb of the day it barely ever does.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I think I misread the post - apparantly it was only top-10 and not top 25. Maybe San Carlo isn't objectively harder, but at least I think its a better climb than Livigno for example. Its basically Aosta Mortirolo. And yeah, Giau is just a legendary climb, but its true numbers arent the greatest. It would just usually feature as a focal point of the queen stage when its in, well, if its raced which always isn't the case.

 

[Remy55]

I think it‘s a shame that the combo
Jaufenpass/passo giovo and Penser Joch/passo pennes combo with basically no flat in between was never used in Giro.

19,5km with 7,2% followed by
15,5km with 8,2%