What is the end game??

[maxwell2010]

Lurked here since the Landis allegations hit the fan.

I have pretty much figured out that cyclists through the years have doped and that probably in the last 20 years, they have been manipulating blood, and that probably all winners over that period have doped.

That said I really wonder what you the forum members want the end game to be vis a vis Armstrong?
Prison?
Loss of his fortune?
For everyone to treat him as a leper?
That all of his records be removed from the record books?

In my opinion he gave me some of the most memorable sports moments ever. And although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success.
Now if one could sit on a couch, and take pills that would put them over the top and enter a race with no training or with no race day uncertainties, then I would be much less tolerant.

And I think that people are fooling themselves about a clean sport. Name me one sport that is clean where there is lots of money involved?

Do you really think that busting Armstrong will lead to a clean sport?

We ask a lot of cyclists and the grand tours put so much stress on a person that they cannot perform at a high level for week after week after week. I feel in many ways the tour organizers understand this and look the other way except when there are forced to.

If I were to run a grand tour I would set certain test standards. If they didn't meet them, then out they go. If they met them, I would hand out the awards, destroy all the samples and say "see you next year!" Right now cycling is killing itself with how they handle it.

I guess it makes good copy for the off season but I think the present system just destroys the sport's appeal.

 

[Merckx index]

Good question. I'm sure I'm a moderate in this context, but I don't want to see LA go to prison (unless he's been doing a lot more than doping himself, which may yet be proven). I mostly want to see him admit to doping. I don't really care if he loses his TDF titles, because if he admits he doped to win those races, fans can decide for themselves how much those wins are worth. MLB players like McGwire, Bonds and Clemens may keep their stats, but they are now widely discounted as historical standards, and if LA finally admits doping, I would imagine his records will suffer a similar fate.

Regardless of what happens, his credbility has already taken a hit. Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that some longtime fans who really don't follow pro racing closely and who have always defended him are now beginning to accept that he wasn't clean. He will certainly spend a bundle to defend himself. Whether the fortune he made through his wins will take a really serious hit remains to be seen. I know many here who think that if it doesn't, justice will not be served. I think that's a reasonable position, but unless it can be proved that he played a major role in getting other riders to dope, riders who nothave doped otherwise, I don't want to see him go to jail.

 

[hrotha]

I want Armstrong and more importantly Bruyneel to be forced to stay away from cycling forever.
I want Armstrong and all other riders involved in the investigation to admit publicly to what they did, and I want them to cooperate with WADA and USADA.
I want the UCI to be exposed for the corrupt institution that it is. I want McQuaid, Verbruggen and the rest of their ilk gone and testing taken away from them.

The rest (the alleged fraud and all that) is none of my concern as a cycling fan and whatever the feds do about it will be fine with me.

I do think a clean sport is possible, and the debacle this case will be could well be part of what the sport needs to have a change of culture among the riders and the DS's. Busting Armstrong, as the most successful rider of recent times, is key. Virtually all his rivals have been busted, but he hasn't. We need the riders to be 100% sure they'll be caught if they dope, and that's only possible with an honest UCI and tools like retroactive testing.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Lurked here since the Landis allegations hit the fan.

I have pretty much figured out that cyclists through the years have doped and that probably in the last 20 years, they have been manipulating blood, and that probably all winners over that period have doped.

That said I really wonder what you the forum members want the end game to be vis a vis Armstrong?
Prison?
Loss of his fortune?
For everyone to treat him as a leper?
That all of his records be removed from the record books?

In my opinion he gave me some of the most memorable sports moments ever. And although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success.
Now if one could sit on a couch, and take pills that would put them over the top and enter a race with no training or with no race day uncertainties, then I would be much less tolerant.

And I think that people are fooling themselves about a clean sport. Name me one sport that is clean where there is lots of money involved?

Do you really think that busting Armstrong will lead to a clean sport?

We ask a lot of cyclists and the grand tours put so much stress on a person that they cannot perform at a high level for week after week after week. I feel in many ways the tour organizers understand this and look the other way except when there are forced to.

If I were to run a grand tour I would set certain test standards. If they didn't meet them, then out they go. If they met them, I would hand out the awards, destroy all the samples and say "see you next year!" Right now cycling is killing itself with how they handle it.

I guess it makes good copy for the off season but I think the present system just destroys the sport's appeal.

Welcome on your first post - let me make it concise so others read it.

Long time lurker.
Everyone last 20 yrs doped.
Why pick on Lance?
HE gave me memorable memories.
If PED's made him much much better I may have an issue.
Remember, there will never be a clean sport - why bother?
Direct quote: Do you really think that busting Armstrong will lead to a clean sport?
Grand Tours too tough.
I would set certain criteria- (basically dont get caught)
Cycling is "killing itself".....
It is popular to blast cycling.
The sport will be destroyed (by highlighting the doping that is rampant in the sport)

 

[spaceboy]

A level playing field. That's it. That is all I want.

 

[ManInFull]

Lurked here since the Landis allegations hit the fan.

I have pretty much figured out that cyclists through the years have doped and that probably in the last 20 years, they have been manipulating blood, and that probably all winners over that period have doped.

That said I really wonder what you the forum members want the end game to be vis a vis Armstrong?
Prison?
Loss of his fortune?
For everyone to treat him as a leper?
That all of his records be removed from the record books?

In my opinion he gave me some of the most memorable sports moments ever. And although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success.
Now if one could sit on a couch, and take pills that would put them over the top and enter a race with no training or with no race day uncertainties, then I would be much less tolerant.

And I think that people are fooling themselves about a clean sport. Name me one sport that is clean where there is lots of money involved?

Do you really think that busting Armstrong will lead to a clean sport?

We ask a lot of cyclists and the grand tours put so much stress on a person that they cannot perform at a high level for week after week after week. I feel in many ways the tour organizers understand this and look the other way except when there are forced to.

If I were to run a grand tour I would set certain test standards. If they didn't meet them, then out they go. If they met them, I would hand out the awards, destroy all the samples and say "see you next year!" Right now cycling is killing itself with how they handle it.

I guess it makes good copy for the off season but I think the present system just destroys the sport's appeal.

I want to give some of my Lance-Loving friends a big sh*t-eating grin after he admits to doping or after it becomes so obvious he doped that even a juror from the OJ case thinks he doped.

 

[NashbarShorts]

...he gave me some of the most memorable sports moments ever.

Really?? And you still feel that way??? You sound like a battered woman. "Well, I know, I know...but at other times he's so sweet to me."

although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success....

Riiiight. 'Cause other pros, even the 2nd tier pros...those guys don't really have a work ethic. They don't train hard or anything. (Whereas LA, he's riding the wind trainer in the shed that powers the ESPN generator at night, right?) And competitive? Nah, probably not. Those other guys are mostly sissies. That's why they walk the bike down descents and wave others in front going into corners.

Question: do you think Armstrong is a nice guy, who doped? Simeoni, Bassons. Figure it out. Read the Kimmage article where it's explained that after FAndreu admitted doping INDIVIDUALLY, LA and Johan sent him an overnite FedEx threatening to break his kneecaps -- err, threatening to go after him for all backwages he ever earned at Postal (he had signed a "no-doping" pledge, after all.)

So again, is your LA-LA a nice guy, or vindictive thug megalomaniac? Maybe it's the latter, and maybe that's why a lot of us are lining up w/ our popcorn and trying to get a good seat before the show starts.

 

[uspostal]

Lurked here since the Landis allegations hit the fan.

I have pretty much figured out that cyclists through the years have doped and that probably in the last 20 years, they have been manipulating blood, and that probably all winners over that period have doped.

That said I really wonder what you the forum members want the end game to be vis a vis Armstrong?
Prison?
Loss of his fortune?
For everyone to treat him as a leper?
That all of his records be removed from the record books?

In my opinion he gave me some of the most memorable sports moments ever. And although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success.
Now if one could sit on a couch, and take pills that would put them over the top and enter a race with no training or with no race day uncertainties, then I would be much less tolerant.

And I think that people are fooling themselves about a clean sport. Name me one sport that is clean where there is lots of money involved?

Do you really think that busting Armstrong will lead to a clean sport?

We ask a lot of cyclists and the grand tours put so much stress on a person that they cannot perform at a high level for week after week after week. I feel in many ways the tour organizers understand this and look the other way except when there are forced to.

If I were to run a grand tour I would set certain test standards. If they didn't meet them, then out they go. If they met them, I would hand out the awards, destroy all the samples and say "see you next year!" Right now cycling is killing itself with how they handle it.

I guess it makes good copy for the off season but I think the present system just destroys the sport's appeal.

Welcome Maxwell2010,
As you now know, there's no sitting on the LA fence, you are either with him or against him, no fence riding allowed. Most here want blood and in absence of that not much else will do. The line is clear and deep between the sides, Kinda like a civil war, cyclists and fans have used verbal blasts back and forth web links, newspaper articles, you name it its been tossed around here. The fanboys seen to get beat-up pretty badly but hey thats life. Have fun and don't take anything anybody says too serously.

 

[maxwell2010]

Welcome Maxwell2010,
As you now know, there's no sitting on the LA fence, you are either with him or against him, no fence riding allowed. Most here want blood and in absence of that not much else will do. The line is clear and deep between the sides, Kinda like a civil war, cyclists and fans have used verbal blasts back and forth web links, newspaper articles, you name it its been tossed around here. The fanboys seen to get beat-up pretty badly but hey thats life. Have fun and don't take anything anybody says too serously.

I certainly don't or won't.
Many people on this board want blood or worse. They want to laugh in the face of those who are or were fans of Armstrong.
It reminds me of sports fanatics taking sides. They want their opponents crushed and humiliated.
This is my last post on this board. I have a life to lead!

 

[BroDeal]

I certainly don't or won't.
Many people on this board want blood or worse. They want to laugh in the face of those who are or were fans of Armstrong.
It reminds me of sports fanatics taking sides. They want their opponents crushed and humiliated.
This is my last post on this board. I have a life to lead!

There has been a sharp decline in the quality of trolls on this forum. This one did not make it past two posts before giving up what he attempted and high tailing it out of here.

 

[hfer07]

And although I am sure he doped, I am convinced that his work ethic and competitive nature were also keys to his success.

uhh? how can anyone have work ethic & cheat/dope at the same time?
so how much are they paying you to write that crap?

 

[Tubeless]

I certainly don't or won't.
Many people on this board want blood or worse. They want to laugh in the face of those who are or were fans of Armstrong.
It reminds me of sports fanatics taking sides. They want their opponents crushed and humiliated.
This is my last post on this board. I have a life to lead!

Well, hello and goodbye. That was quick?

Most of us here just want the truth to come out. It may hurt LA legally, financially or in the ego, but on the long run it'll be good for him. He's built a legacy, a financial fortune and a charitable organization on a lie. That's what most people resent to. We don't want to be taken for granted - or shall we say we don't want our sport heros to lie to us.

It's hard to find another pro athlete from any sport who's used his sponsor's money (and in fact getting paid to do so) to publically deny in a major TV commercial that he's ever doped. And it wasn't even a play on words. What am I on? - paid for by our most ethical sneaker maker...

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

Admission of doping is not enough.

Minimally, he needs to pay back all the sponsors and insurers he defrauded with his claims of clean TdF wins.

He needs to face whatever punishment is proper for organizing a doping program that bought, sold and moved controlled substances across international borders. Lance was never a passive participant in anything in his life.

Finally, the big one. Did Lance bribe UCI? We need to get to the bottom of this.

Just the truth. That's all we ask.

 

[turnkey303]

Awwww

There has been a sharp decline in the quality of trolls on this forum. This one did not make it past two posts before giving up what he attempted and high tailing it out of here.

And just when it looked like you were going soft and easing up on the condescending jerk attitude on posters with less than 10,000,000 posts you go and live down to your reputation.

 

[Cobblestones]

The endgame isn't about LA, the Hog, or even the UCI.

For me, a good starting point would be to crush the omerta so that people who push dope or riders who ask for dope have to be seriously afraid of whistleblowers.

 

[ak-zaaf]

That said I really wonder what you the forum members want the end game to be vis a vis Armstrong?
Prison?
Loss of his fortune?
For everyone to treat him as a leper?
That all of his records be removed from the record books?

I would be fine with the media not portraying him as a saint and superhuman anymore, he can keep his tours, taking away 10 year old victories would be way more devastating to the sport than anything else.
Prison would be fun though, it would send a strong signal.

Personally I'd much rather see Bruyneel in the eye of the storm. Him being seen as a tactical mastermind and some sort of DS-god is more sickening to me than another EPO-user from the '90s/'00s.
LA stopped, who cares anymore?

 

[ManInFull]

Admission of doping is not enough.

Minimally, he needs to pay back all the sponsors and insurers he defrauded with his claims of clean TdF wins.

He needs to face whatever punishment is proper for organizing a doping program that bought, sold and moved controlled substances across international borders. Lance was never a passive participant in anything in his life.

Finally, the big one. Did Lance bribe UCI? We need to get to the bottom of this.

Just the truth. That's all we ask.

I don't think we'll be lucky enough to get all of that. I will settle for a clear indication that he doped and that the money he provided to the UCI was a bribe.

 

[The Hitch]

I would just like to point out that people generally stick by their celebrities no matter what.

There are probably loads more i havent heard of but here are a few examples.

Michael Jackson and that kid. I dont follow showbiz much but i remember people saying they thought he was guilty. But his fanbase stuck by him, releasing doves when he was found not guilty, and after a year or 2 everyone came back to loving him. In June last year i initialy thought that the world had come to an end, until i realised it was just that michael jackson had died.

Here in England one of the countires most famous footballers, with a history of jail time, got caught banging his teammates wife. The whole country booed him yet fans of his club said that this was not a football matter and then booed the teammate On seperate occasions the fans who booed the footballer this time used the " this is not a football matter" in defense of their own players. About a month or 2 later everyone was cheering him again

No matter how often politicians lie, their fan base will always stick by them.

Ted Kennedy killed a woman for christ sake, that didnt stop him from almost becoming president and people writing in his obituaries that the woman would have been proud to die for the good cause which teddies life became

Compared to Lance these are even more serious offenses (child abuse, adultery, lying to a country, murder) yet the masses stick by their media invented heroes. The vast majority will always say that Lance was special. I have heard the "lance doped but he still would have won without dope" line many times and even if Lance loses his court cases this is what people will say. This + the "he did good work for cancer".

 

[ChrisE]

uhh? how can anyone have work ethic & cheat/dope at the same time?
so how much are they paying you to write that crap?

Ummm, because all the other major competitors were doing the same thing. So, he still had to work hard to beat those guys. Are you really questioning his work ethic?

 

[Benotti69]

I am hoping that this goes past LA/Hog (while leaving them tarnished by it forever) and proves that professional sport is merely an advertising vehicle and that the athletes/participants are for the most part the pawns in this game and the fans the suckers/victims.

I hope it makes the media shake itself out of its part in the omerta, the fans wake up and demand a level of reality from sport, as i reckon that Novisky is looking deeper than LA and trying to go for the dealers, manufacturer's of the PEDs who have to be doing this illegally.

LA is not going to go away. His ego is huge and he will be continuing to cheat/fraud/lie in every aspect of his future life to get what ever it is he wants, most likely power over people, which i imagine will lead to a life of sorts in politics.

 

[ChrisE]

I would just like to point out that people generally stick by their celebrities no matter what.

There are probably loads more i havent heard of but here are a few examples.

Michael Jackson and that kid. I dont follow showbiz much but i remember people saying they thought he was guilty. But his fanbase stuck by him, releasing doves when he was found not guilty, and after a year or 2 everyone came back to loving him. In June last year i initialy thought that the world had come to an end, until i realised it was just that michael jackson had died.

Here in England one of the countires most famous footballers, with a history of jail time, got caught banging his teammates wife. The whole country booed him yet fans of his club said that this was not a football matter and then booed the teammate On seperate occasions the fans who booed the footballer this time used the " this is not a football matter" in defense of their own players. About a month or 2 later everyone was cheering him again

No matter how often politicians lie, their fan base will always stick by them.

Ted Kennedy killed a woman for christ sake, that didnt stop him from almost becoming president and people writing in his obituaries that the woman would have been proud to die for the good cause which teddies life became

Compared to Lance these are even more serious offenses (child abuse, adultery, lying to a country, murder) yet the masses stick by their media invented heroes. The vast majority will always say that Lance was special. I have heard the "lance doped but he still would have won without dope" line many times and even if Lance loses his court cases this is what people will say. This + the "he did good work for cancer".

Good post. Barry Bonds used to get booed in every stadium he played in on the road, yet if he would've gotten traded to team "x" then all of a sudden those fans would have loved him.

 

[henryg]

What I'd like to see is the whole truth to come out about the teams, management, labs, UCI and the whole corrupt crooked mess. I don't care whether LA or Bruyneel go to jail or not. Exposing the fraud behind their rise will be worse for them then any punishment the courts might hand out.

More important (for me) would be that the exposure would force a complete overhaul of the UCI and the testing authorities so maybe some benefit to the future of cycling would come of it.

 

[jimmypop]

Ummm, because all the other major competitors were doing the same thing. So, he still had to work hard to beat those guys. Are you really questioning his work ethic?

You know better than to bandy this bull**** about.

What if he's a hyper-responder to the treatments Ferrari prescribed? No matter how you try to justify it, he cheated, regardless the size of your man-crush.

Yeah, he pedaled hard just like the rest of them, and spent his time on the bike. The flip side of the same coin is that others with just as much talent and training prowess may have lost out because of Armstrong's natural ability to respond to PEDs.

So, no, it's not fair. And yes, I know life isn't fair, but cyclists know the rules when they hit the start line. Cheating is cheating, and you're still a chump for bowing at the feet of this selfish tw@t.

 

[Boeing]

Respectfully, your title question is a good one but your post reads like Lance sympathy.


What is the End Game for this investigation specifically? That is a great big picture question and one that really hasn't been discussed, and one the Feds better not lose focus of

My thought is that it should be less about the person and more about the process. Unlike the Bonds experience

An above poster stated agenda should be a little bigger picture as in a 'Level Playing field.' SPOT ON!

If lance is countering now with a public opinion manager he is doing so to remind everyone what a great guy is is allegedly; Lance wants to make this personal. Miller and Novitzky should change their tone. On all fronts it sounds like an anti lance agenda, especially with Landis in the mix... I assume the Feds haven't said much because they still don't know what charges they have or can prove which is fine. But statements and reminders noting that this process is bigger than any one athlete and is about preserving fair opportunities for youth in this sport of cycling or Glory of Sport in general etc is a good place to start.I am not suggestion that public opinion matters really. I am saying that the Bonds case became personal and the message was lost and this LA case shouldn't and they shouldn't let Lance turn it personal and play the victim.

The point is, and the reason so many posters here hate this guy, The Sport itself is bigger than Lance.

The big picture might benefit fan boys and make them stop and think as well.

 

[Digger]

End game - it makes me puke, but he will still have the fans who are either stupid, naive, or in denial. Lance denies - the fans say it was a witch hunt. Lance admits - people say it was a level playing field. I will admit that I am struggling to fathom his fans though - they blamed the French for being jealous, then it was the Europeans, then journalists out to make money, blamed the lab for spiking the samples, blamed L'Equipe for spiking the samples, Greg is bitter, Betsy hates Lance, Frankie backing her up, Emma is a sl** and was kicked off the team, Simeoni has no credibility, never tested positive (except for the spiked samples), Ferrari was testing fat percentages, Floys is deranged, the American investigators are trying to make a name for themselves, a witch hunt (thus negating the line about American justice being better than European or French law)......It's unbelievable stuff. And as Race Radio points out so often and so well, we are the ones called the conspiracy theorists.