What needs to happen for you to trust again?

[Velo_vicar]

As a frequent visitor to this forum but rare contributer, i am genuinely interested to know what needs to happen for posters to trust in cycling again? At what point will you be able to say 'this is a clean sport' or 'i trust the majority of the results' (i am not talking about it being perfect there will always be people looking to cheat). But where is the line in the sand for you, what needs to happen?
i can understand why one might say it will never happen. What i don't understand is why if taking that view one would bother with cycling any more, if in your eyes it is unredeemable?
As long as there is bike racing there will be circumstances that could be used to point to doping. So can you ever trust again? What needs to happen to restore trust?
Realistic answers please, i like everyone want transparency but i am not sure it will happen as much as we would like. It would be great to have Paul Kimmage living in Bradley Wiggins underpants but i suspect it is not going to happen. So at some point we are going to have to trust or are we asking for something the sport will never be able to deliver.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

A purge from top to bottom of the administration at the international level, national and local level.

A purge of the riders, team management and backroom staff.

A purge of the media, hack journalists and pr flunkies who sustained the doping culture can go **** themselves.

The separation of anti-doping and discipline from the administration of the sport.

 

[DirtyWorks]

1. WADA gets the authority to open anti-doping cases on their own leaving the sports federation as an athlete advocate at best.

2. Sylvia Schenk is in Pat's job. I've probably misspelled her name again.

3. Pat and Hein are banned from the IOC and from doing any business with the IOC or IOC recognized sports or federations.

4. Patrice LeClerc perhaps for Hein's job.

5. WCP is destroyed.

There are probably others just as suitable for Hein's job. But, it will still take years for the federation to be run more honestly. It's been institutionalized at this point.

 

[D-Queued]

A purge from top to bottom of the administration at the international level, national and local level.

A purge of the riders, team management and backroom staff.

A purge of the media, hack journalists and pr flunkies who sustained the doping culture can go **** themselves.

The separation of anti-doping and discipline from the administration of the sport.

Start there. Then let's see who replaces them and how they are replaced.

Dave.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Start there. Then let's see who replaces them and how they are replaced.

Dave.

Any change has to be root and branch. The last thing you want is McQuaid and Verbruggen to be replaced by some second-tier party hack who is just McQuaid-lite with slightly better media skills.

 

[D-Queued]

Any change has to be root and branch. The last thing you want is McQuaid and Verbruggen to be replaced by some second-tier party hack who is just McQuaid-lite with slightly better media skills.

Exactly.

And, I wasn't trying to minimize your other well taken points.

We had enormous change in sport, period, following Festina. There is probably no other single event which has had as far-reaching an impact on all of sport.

We/they didn't cut off the head within cycling, however. While all of the rest of sport changed, the only thing that changed for cycling was that the situation became worse and that arguably the worst doper, ever, was protected in a farcical, near decade-long sport kidnap.

Dave.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

A purge from top to bottom of the administration at the international level, national and local level.

A purge of the riders, team management and backroom staff.

A purge of the media, hack journalists and pr flunkies who sustained the doping culture can go **** themselves.

The separation of anti-doping and discipline from the administration of the sport.

The highlighted is the all important one.
I would go a step further and say remove all anti-doping from the sports authority. Have it to a completely independent authority whose sole purpose is anti- doping.
Then it does not matter so much who else is where as long as they do not have their hand on the wheel.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Restructure the UCI to try and remove it's incentives to promote and profit from the sport. Restrict its activities to administration (licensing, setting rules, providing commissaires, etc).

Establish a rider's commission that can effectively negotiate on their behalf. One for race promoters too. Everything from the race calendar, profit sharing, organization of the sport (i.e., points system, elegibility to become a pro tour team, whether there is such thing as a pro tour, etc) is to be decided by them. Not the UCI. Consensus must be met on all decisions with equal representation from both groups.

Drafting of a "constitution" which delineates the inalienable rights of all interested parties.

Yes, a truth and reconciliation process. Any rider who admits to doping is allowed to finish their racing career, but is not allowed to remain in the sport after they retire. Sorry JV, you really do need to go. A cloud will hang over you always. Sucks, but that's the way it is.

Set up a retraining fund. Those who are ineligible to continue in the sport (have admitted doping during the T&R process) will have access to "scholarships", living expenses, etc to soften their landing and prevent economics from derailing the T&R process.

Moving forward, set up a retirement fund in addition to the retraining fund. Clean athletes can have access to this when they retire. Anyone caught doping forfeits this benefit.

John Swanson

 

[Catwhoorg]

WADA to be charge of all testing and results management, with some delegation to trustworthy national anti-doping bodies.

Bio-passport data to be publicly available (after say a 12 month lag time).

No international federation is allowed to both administer a sport and run events. Any sanctioned events must be run by 3rd parties.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Exactly.

And, I wasn't trying to minimize your other well taken points.

We had enormous change in sport, period, following Festina. There is probably no other single event which has had as far-reaching an impact on all of sport.

We/they didn't cut off the head within cycling, however. While all of the rest of sport changed, the only thing that changed for cycling was that the situation became worse and that arguably the worst doper, ever, was protected in a farcical, near decade-long sport kidnap.

Dave.

I guess my view is that I see Festina as a 'stolen revolution' (a bit like Egypt or Romania) where there is a chance for genuine change but that the old guard takes advantage of the weakness of the revolutionaries and in the end is able to steal the revolution and maintain the status quo.

That is my greatest fear if McQuaid goes - that people will say 'hooray the witch is dead', but not notice that the witch's apprentice has taken over.

No good getting rid of McQuaid if US cycling is still run by the same people who covered for Armstrong, or British cycling by people who will cover for Sky etc, or if REFC remains unreformed.

No good getting rid of McQuaid if race organizers are still able to thumb their nose at anti-doping and invite dirty teams, or to make testing harder/impossible.

No good getting rid of McQuaid, if the press decides to fawn all over the next great white hope and never ask any tough questions.

You can't change the superstructure if you don't change the base.

I don't want to be here in 15 years time having this same debate about how come no one had ever done anything about Sky, (or whoever the next big thing is) when the first set of warning signs were there.

 

[Nick C.]

The UCI just needs to be purged. They are a walking conflict of interest/money grab and getting worse rather than better. WCP, Tour of Beijing could things be more ridiculous. McQuaid sets up a race promotion company, had the UCI force teams to ride the race gives it HC status and points. At the risk of being histrionic it is the beginning of the end for the smaller more interesting races.

As for the doping control by the UCI somewhere around the time Contador's test results were leaked weeks or even months after they were taken was when I stopped taking them seriously. McQuaid's backpedaling fluffernutter comments only sealed the deal.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Christophe Bassons running the sport, preferably with dictatorial impunity.

 

[KayLow]

I will start feeling good about pro cycling again when two things begin to happen with regularity:

(1) Riders who were once very good to great inexplicably drop off the map.
(2) Retired riders confess to having once regularly doped during their careers but also claim to have stopped doping entirely due to the fear of getting caught by testing.

 

[Cobblestoned]

When you trust in mankind you can also start trusting in procycling.

Like I always like to predict: one day the aliens will visit us and we will send them that brigade of polished and flawless humans - our procyclists- who make this planet worth living on.

 

[Darryl Webster]

TBH , and maybe its just my present mood, I don't think there is any possibility I will ever trust in pro cycling again.
I've long felt, as in much of the rest of life, the " fans" ( public) are complicit in the status quo and only in the last couple of days a prime example of this complicity ( duplicity. denial) has reared its ugly head and exasperated my frustration.
A uk cycling forum of which I have been a member for 4 years has affectively barred me for the " crime" of sharing information , some from here, some from other sites , newspapers etc in the " Pro News" section of that forum for being " to negative" because many of my posts concerned doping in pro cycling.
My barring took the form of a 24 hour suspension but when that was lifted I have been restricted to only being able to post in the training section were I have been coaching a couple of amateur riders. I'm no longer able to send or relieve private messages or comment on any other threads.
The admin of the forum even pinned two threads , one concerning the suspension, one concerning its "lifting" and while these threads ran to 120 + and 40 + comments in less than 24 hours I myself was unable to state my position or defend myself from some pretty nasty comments including inference about my mental health.
With this level of vilification of those that "dare" to speak out on this issue continuing in spite of the tumultuous events of recent weeks, Arnstrong,s TDF stripping, the revelations contained in The Secret Race, the impending court case against Paul Kimmage etc, etc...when so called cycling "fans" continue to live in such blatant denial then I can only conclude there is NO future possibility of this or any other Pro sport ever being clean.
I feel pretty low.

 

[the big ring]

TBH , and maybe its just my present mood, I don't think there is any possibility I will ever trust in pro cycling again.
... I feel pretty low.

Totally understandable that you feel that way, Darryl.

You have the skills to deal with this, and clearly are doing so - I just want to confirm that what you have experienced is rabid censorship. And it is repulsive.

As I look into my pet doping subject, I come to realise the full power and reach of omerta, and it is disheartening. To be honest, I have more than once thought to myself - this is hopeless. I have even strayed as far as the "just let 'em do whatever" frame of mind often espoused.

But I am thankful that this lasts but a moment, and the value system I have - of doing an honest effort - rejects those notions, and urges me to continue.

You stood up to them back in the day, and paid dearly, a most grievous price.

Keep going, Darryl. We need you, your insight and your valuable input.

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

I know what I'd like to see, but bear in mind that this 'idealism';

Leave the UCI alone in terms of creating races and adding ProTour dates (there's no real way around that one; they're entrenched, have all the 'ins' for every country etc.). They may not be perfect (or even short of ***), but you have to pick your fights - this one's about doping.

As of NOW. And I mean NOW! No date in the past, or era of signifigance, I mean NOW, give amnesty to all riders and staff who speak out (and give testimony) to any misdeeds they've seen or been a part of.

As of that date, allow an entirely independent body deal with any doping-control, or the appeals that come up due to that independent body overseeing doping-control. The UCI is OUT of that entirely.

After that date of 'amnesty' (the above-mentioned 'NOW' moment), anyone (rider or staff) who gets popped looses their right to be involved in cycling. No license, whether it be a rider one or a staff one.

The answer is simple - allow Omerta to die, and get the UCI out of testing.

Let them be corrupt in the usual veins (setting up races, picking events for they Olys, developing a points structure, etc).

Just get them the f*ck out of testing, and allow the nerds to oversee the show. Nerds with teeth, I might add. Big, scary, motherf*cking teeth...

 

[Darryl Webster]

Totally understandable that you feel that way, Darryl.

You have the skills to deal with this, and clearly are doing so - I just want to confirm that what you have experienced is rabid censorship. And it is repulsive.

As I look into my pet doping subject, I come to realise the full power and reach of omerta, and it is disheartening. To be honest, I have more than once thought to myself - this is hopeless. I have even strayed as far as the "just let 'em do whatever" frame of mind often espoused.

But I am thankful that this lasts but a moment, and the value system I have - of doing an honest effort - rejects those notions, and urges me to continue.

You stood up to them back in the day, and paid dearly, a most grievous price.

Keep going, Darryl. We need you, your insight and your valuable input.

Thanks Big Ring for your thoughtfulness..its pretty dam rough when despite all my outspokenness , despite the career loss, and despite my frankness about personal battles with depression that fellow cyclists can behave in such a way..even accuse me of having doped during my career ( with absalutly no evidence or results that come close to suggesting it) and even attack my mental health status on a public forum.
Its fecking disgusting.

 

[Ozzie2]

Please forgive this long epistle
I know things > 10 lines hurt our head
However how do you fix this in 10 lines?

For those who have 32 years here are my thoughts and suggestions
as to what could help the sport we obviously love and are entranced by

Cheers


What causes a cyclist to dope?

Take David Millar. Young, ignorant, naive, lacking anuthority figure in his life.
Tired, stressed out, committed to his team
Does all he can, the team make unrealistic demands of him, he can't recover.
He's been injecting vitamins
He sees everyone else do it.
The nice TDs sit with him in a weak state and map out his next year, and well, just the Giro son, we just need you to be prepared, to catch up, to help the contender.
He doesnt speak the language, feels weak, doesn't know what his future brings. Family at home want him to be successful, are encouraging him but kind of pressuring him.
Is he really cheating, or just this one time going to use EPO to catch up to his natural state?
I mean he probably didn't even take aspirin up to this point
And he's proven to himself he can do it. He's done well at World TTs, won some stages.
But the vultures circled closer onto him as prey.
More points son, one more race, level playing field.

For me, its the rider who got there naturally, is then depleted through injury,m exhaustion, vulnerability through dislocation, language, cash flow, calender concerns. And then he is told he has 3 days to get ready for this 4 day race withthe TdG right behind it.

He is so exhausted he can't even keep up during training rides

THESE are the kids of the next generation we need to protect.

You will always have ego people like Ricardo Ricci.

Maybe we can reduce the pressure of performance?

Make the stages shorter, less demanding?

Reduce the fatigue factor (I simple can't beleive Sky riders were able to race so many races...please don't let this be a sky thread ok, just suggesting their riders have been placed under inextricable personal physical duress this season thats all)

Also, having been involved in high level stuff myself in a team style environment, what drives me? success for the team as much as letting it down

I think if your TDs and owners design a team froj the ground up to be clean (ie slipstream was) then the riders take pride in a difference achievement. Thats positive. If the riders assess each others values they will self- censor the risk of doping.


The hard part is when you get a Brad Wiggins, or Ricci, who want to be the best ever. They are entitled to chase that dream, but are incompatible

I think we need to support and respect teams who place themselves under a higher degree of scrutiny and have their rewards based on slightly different outcomes than how they cross the line results wise.

when there is money, girls, prestige etc on the line, you can't stop it. its NOT cycling, its human nature. swimming, boxing, baseball, tennis, soccer, athletics. this is not cycling

It all starts with the kids of the next generation and keeping the vampires away from them.

Maybe also understanding the pressure of 100 people on a payroll for someone like Contador maybe (example at random) might mean those people are prepared to fess us for the sake of the next generation

I think the book will make a difference.

I actually think only LA can save the sport in this way.

If he speaks to AC and FC and JU and the others we know if like Tyler and Flandis, and says guys, lets ALL be in the press conference together, lets ALL speak together, lets ALL just keep it simple and get it off our backs and out there

Say to the world

"we ALL did this"
"we ALL did that"
"this was the pressure we were ALL under"
"what did you all really think when you see a calendar and course like those?"
"we don't hate each other because it was a level playing field"
"no one was ripped of"
"it just was"

Say you've all agreed no more interviews, its finished, over.
There won't be testifying, no books, no further comments.

Maybe also have a known clean guy up there too with them to show that the doped cyclists knew who was clean, to prove to those choosing now whether to dope or not know that the clean guys are always recognised and respected, even 10 years later.

And just leave it there.

No "who how when where payoffs" and all that. Those in the know, know that anyway.

This can almost be a 15 minute press conference.

The shortest sports press conference in history

The most significant event in sporting history

Then they get their baggage off their back

They can participate in cleaning it up structurally

I detest Lance because he lies, not because he doped

Is LA the only one who can get everyone in a room at the same time?



Acknowledge the past
Blame it on everyone (we the fans wanted it that way)
Talk about the structures in place to reduce the pressure

And then a 4 month non testing window for all cyclists to clean the system

Then from there, any cyclists who falls prey to temptation but feels guilty and confessed is given a 1 year ban with no questions asked no prizes or wins taken away, no financial penalties

Subsequently if they are busted again they get a a lifetime bans

Also remove the stigma of those who DO discover a cheat. They tell the cheat he can dob himself in or they will do it in 1 months time

If you know he will only get a 1 year no questions asked penalty, and not lose his prizes or team place I'd hope a cyclist would feel its not a death penalty so would be comfortable reporting him....knowing the cyclist will stay in the system and can pull the trigger on himself.

If he doesnt and is caught or doesnt report himself then its lifetime ban

TDs or Doctors or signeor (sp?) who are invovled get lifetime bans from teh sport if they don't turn themselves in/ same lifetime

Any cyclists dealing a banned agent is lifetime banned as well


I know this is idealilst, but maybe it

 

[the big ring]

Yeah I agree. tl;dr.

I've seen really strong riders, nice guys, return to Australia and go back to whatever they do, because they do not want to dope.

You want to reduce first offence from 2 years to 1?

I preferred Ashenden's thoughts on it, although I have read other things that are leading me to question a lot more than what you see at first hand.

 

[sittingbison]

Thanks Big Ring for your thoughtfulness..its pretty dam rough when despite all my outspokenness , despite the career loss, and despite my frankness about personal battles with depression that fellow cyclists can behave in such a way..even accuse me of having doped during my career ( with absalutly no evidence or results that come close to suggesting it) and even attack my mental health status on a public forum.
Its fecking disgusting.

Darryl keep you chin up mate, don't let ignoramuses get you down. You are greatly appreciated by more people than you realise, for your knowledge and honesty among others.

 

[Ozzie2]

Yeah I agree. tl;dr.

I've seen really strong riders, nice guys, return to Australia and go back to whatever they do, because they do not want to dope.

You want to reduce first offence from 2 years to 1?

I preferred Ashenden's thoughts on it, although I have read other things that are leading me to question a lot more than what you see at first hand.

Yes I do
You want these kids (ideally) who_have succummed_ either through pressure of naivety, to want to start again

1 year is doable

The switch to the bait is that you have to make it a life ban if ever again after


Also it dents Omerta

If I see my roomie do it, and I want the sport to be clean, I want him to get out of the predicament that got him to that point, I don't want to dob, I want to help him

If other cyclists know I will narc on him to protect him, then they will do likewise.

Its the classic Nash Equilibrium- or prisoners dillemma payoff matrix

You report, because by doing so, others will also do so. This means everyone has a higher degree of confidence that no one else is, so they won't.

IF you are caught, and it is a systemic you did it sneakily to get extra glory, then Life ban. ie Ricci, Landis kind of doping

If you dob yourself in- no questions can be asked of you.
1 year ban, keep all prizes and awards, contract remains in operation (ie team cannot sack you)

We need to break Omerta initially.
Not by alienating the narc.
Its not narcing- its helping
Omerta needs to be the complete opposite.;
If you see it or know of it, you want to help them get out of it

Give everyone an escape clause

But absolutely ban the predators and toxic dopers, and liars

life ban

 

[RichWalk]

TBH , and maybe its just my present mood, I don't think there is any possibility I will ever trust in pro cycling again.
I've long felt, as in much of the rest of life, the " fans" ( public) are complicit in the status quo and only in the last couple of days a prime example of this complicity ( duplicity. denial) has reared its ugly head and exasperated my frustration.
A uk cycling forum of which I have been a member for 4 years has affectively barred me for the " crime" of sharing information , some from here, some from other sites , newspapers etc in the " Pro News" section of that forum for being " to negative" because many of my posts concerned doping in pro cycling.
My barring took the form of a 24 hour suspension but when that was lifted I have been restricted to only being able to post in the training section were I have been coaching a couple of amateur riders. I'm no longer able to send or relieve private messages or comment on any other threads.
The admin of the forum even pinned two threads , one concerning the suspension, one concerning its "lifting" and while these threads ran to 120 + and 40 + comments in less than 24 hours I myself was unable to state my position or defend myself from some pretty nasty comments including inference about my mental health.
With this level of vilification of those that "dare" to speak out on this issue continuing in spite of the tumultuous events of recent weeks, Arnstrong,s TDF stripping, the revelations contained in The Secret Race, the impending court case against Paul Kimmage etc, etc...when so called cycling "fans" continue to live in such blatant denial then I can only conclude there is NO future possibility of this or any other Pro sport ever being clean.
I feel pretty low.

Thats horrific Darryl, I sincerely hope it reflects the impending change that's coming to pro cycling, out with the old and in with the new.

From a personal point of view, at the time I was racing you were the guy who most impressed me, I watched you compete and saw a couple of your hill climbs which for a lowly 3rd CAT on a grant and a part time job provided increadible motivation as to what could be acheived!!

Now years on, to read about how you made your own stand against doping when you entered the European pro circuit, provides me with one of the only positive and reassuring stories of cycling within my lifetime, a story often recounted to friends.

Cycling has always needed more role models with your moral compass, the backlash you are experiencing is largely sour grapes from those who either accept a doping culture or were part of it and lacked the personal strength to say 'no'.

I can only add that many share your views and will always be supportive and greatful for your input on here.

Cheers

Rich

 

[Ozzie2]

Thanks Big Ring for your thoughtfulness..its pretty dam rough when despite all my outspokenness , despite the career loss, and despite my frankness about personal battles with depression that fellow cyclists can behave in such a way..even accuse me of having doped during my career ( with absalutly no evidence or results that come close to suggesting it) and even attack my mental health status on a public forum.
Its fecking disgusting.

pump a guys head with all sorts of visions
exhaust him
stick him in an apartment in a country he doesnt speak the language
give him 3 days to be in another country climate with cyclists he hardly knows who dont speak the language
then he goes to an empty flat with only a television for company
(if not a bottle as well)
and we wonder why they get depressed?

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Retrospective Testing

A commitment to retrospective testing.........and follow through on that commitments.

There needs to be a commitment to test a certain number of random and targeted samples retrospectively, whenever a new test becomes available. Management of the program (deciding who to test), sample collection, analysis and results management all have to be handled by an organisation separate from the UCI.

Without retrospective testing there is no effective deterrent. I will never have confidence that the UCI is serious about stopping doping until there is a comprehensive retrospective testing program. Never Never Never.