Wheels for Cobbled Sportifs?

[elapid]

A friend and I are going to ride the Tour of Flanders and, if available, Paris-Roubaix sportifs in 2013. I know it is a long way away, but just wanted some recommendations on equipment.

I have my Lynskey titanium road bike (main bike, comfortable, good on dirt and rougher roads) and my Stevens carbon 'cross bike (ride less often, good all rounder, obviously got the clearance, but perhaps not as comfortable as the Lynskey). Which bike would you recommend?

More importantly, which wheels would you recommend. I currently have Zipp 303 clinchers (2006) with Powertap 2.4 hub. I know what most of you think of the Zipps from the other thread, although mine have been faultless for 6 years over all sorts of terrain. I am not prepared to invest in a new frame, but I am in new wheels, particularly wheels that will handle many miles over cobbled roads. We also have our own local versions of Paris-Roubaix in SE Ontario and I regularly ride on poor roads in Quebec and dirt and gravel roads (just because it is fun), so the wheels will get plenty of action regardless. So what wheels or wheel builds would you recommend?

 

[LugHugger]

32 hole 3x alloy rims - tubs if you're easy on your tyres but a risk for spoiling your day(s) out. Velocity a23's otherwise. Tyres - pave evo's, 27s if wet, 24s if dry. Or conti 4 season 28c with tourer tubes which is my preferred set up. Very few punctures with these combinations. Enjoy!

 

[freerider1971]

Keep it simple!

I rode for 8 days during the Flanders-Roubaix week last year… across all the bergs from the Ronde and for 85 miles of the Roubaix Challenge race.

No flats and superb performance on Conti 28mm 4 season clinchers on Specialized Roubaix wheels. I wouldn't change a thing if I were to do it again this year.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

I have ridden Flanders week three times now, always used Ambrosio F20 (tubular) rims, 3X spoking front & rear, with Veloflex Roubaix 24mm tubulars. No punctures, grip was great in wet & dry.

Clinchers are great if you don't puncture, but once you get a flat you will need a good pump (support vehicle with floor pump) to get them back up to full pressure, otherwise you may get many more pinch-flats to follow.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

When pavé is the destination there really is only one wheel set worth mentioning..... Ambrosio Nemesis, Record hubs. It's what cobblestone dreams are made of..

 

[dsut4392]

I have ridden Flanders week three times now, always used Ambrosio F20 (tubular) rims, 3X spoking front & rear, with Veloflex Roubaix 24mm tubulars. No punctures, grip was great in wet & dry.

Clinchers are great if you don't puncture, but once you get a flat you will need a good pump (support vehicle with floor pump) to get them back up to full pressure, otherwise you may get many more pinch-flats to follow.

Say what? Clinchers are at a disadvantage if you puncture? I get that pinch flatting a clincher is more likely than on tubs in the first place, but at least you can patch a tube (or carry a spare) should you get a puncture. If you're too weak to pump your tires up with a hand pump, you could always carry a CO2 inflator and a couple of canisters and job done.
What do you do if you puncture your tubs pray tell? SOL unless you have a support car with spare wheel...

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Say what? Clinchers are at a disadvantage if you puncture? I get that pinch flatting a clincher is more likely than on tubs in the first place, but at least you can patch a tube (or carry a spare) should you get a puncture. If you're too weak to pump your tires up with a hand pump, you could always carry a CO2 inflator and a couple of canisters and job done.
What do you do if you puncture your tubs pray tell? SOL unless you have a support car with spare wheel...

Just in case of flat on a tubular it's no problem either, just tear off the old and pop on the new, but a tubular set up with a little cafelatex or Stan's is vitually a guarantee of a flat free day. Hell, there was a time where I went 6 years of training and racing on tubulars with no flats, that includes gravel, cobbles, bad roads, what have you.

 

[elapid]

Thanks for all your replies. Looks like Ambrioso rims (F20 or Nemesis) is getting the nod by a couple of you. I have no experience with tubulars and have only ever ridden on clinchers. I don't tend to be too hard on my wheels and probably get a couple of flats per season on average (riding a bit on either bad Quebec roads or dirt and gravel roads). I've watched YouTube videos on changing tubulars in a race and it doesn't seem that hard, but I would still be nervous about it. If you had someone that was certain they wanted a clincher, which I am not saying that I am, then what would you recommend?

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Thanks for all your replies. Looks like Ambrioso rims (F20 or Nemesis) is getting the nod by a couple of you. I have no experience with tubulars and have only ever ridden on clinchers. I don't tend to be too hard on my wheels and probably get a couple of flats per season on average (riding a bit on either bad Quebec roads or dirt and gravel roads). I've watched YouTube videos on changing tubulars in a race and it doesn't seem that hard, but I would still be nervous about it. If you had someone that was certain they wanted a clincher, which I am not saying that I am, then what would you recommend?

For clincher, Velocity A23 rims, hole count depending on your weight, biggest tires your frame and brakes will allow. One thing, every tubular set I've built for tubular virgins, they all swear by them now, for daily use even. It's all urban myth and tall tales when you hear how tubulars are a PITA, quite the opposite in fact. Less flats, lighter, less rolling resistance, safer, you can use more range of psi, even when they're maxed out they still have a plush ride, it's no wonder 99% of the pros use them. The wide clincher rim phenomenon set forth by HED and closely followed by Velocity and others is all fine and dandy, but the main goal there was to get all the tubular advantages out of a clincher set up. I say just go with tubulars in the first place, clinchers trying to mimic tubulars is just that, they'll never be equal.

 

[Anonymous]

HED Ardennes, stallion build, Vittoria Pave clinchers, 90psi or less depending on your weight. If you also do the Paris Roubaix challenge you might try Michelin Pro Race 3, 25mm tires (they are a big 25). I used this combo in 2011 and it was very good.

23mm width on a clincher is the real deal.

 

[Bustedknuckle]

Say what? Clinchers are at a disadvantage if you puncture? I get that pinch flatting a clincher is more likely than on tubs in the first place, but at least you can patch a tube (or carry a spare) should you get a puncture. If you're too weak to pump your tires up with a hand pump, you could always carry a CO2 inflator and a couple of canisters and job done.
What do you do if you puncture your tubs pray tell? SOL unless you have a support car with spare wheel...

Nope, take the punctured tire off and put on your preglued spare tire..pump up-finish ride. Another gent who has no first hand knowledge of the superior nature of fine tubulars.

 

[LugHugger]

Nope, take the punctured tire off and put on your preglued spare tire..pump up-finish ride. Another gent who has no first hand knowledge of the superior nature of fine tubulars.

Excuse my ignorance but I've been vexed by this question for a while. A) how long does it take to remove a well glued tub from a rim and what is the correct technique? and B) how do you prevent the pre glued spare from sticking to itself or the contents of your seat bag/jersey pocket?

 

[Benotti69]

Excuse my ignorance but I've been vexed by this question for a while. A) how long does it take to remove a well glued tub from a rim and what is the correct technique? and B) how do you prevent the pre glued spare from sticking to itself or the contents of your seat bag/jersey pocket?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYwfMlEGWlA



this one is from a triathlon site

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-P4R_cV6QQ&feature=related

 

[Fiemme]

Excuse my ignorance but I've been vexed by this question for a while. A) how long does it take to remove a well glued tub from a rim and what is the correct technique? and B) how do you prevent the pre glued spare from sticking to itself or the contents of your seat bag/jersey pocket?

It takes less time to to replace a tubular while training than it does to to replace a clincher inner tube. Keep in mind that the replaced tubular is not going to be race ready. It will get you home and thats it. When you get home re-glue the tyre.

I train and race on tubs, always have. I carry a repaired spare tub folded, wrapped in a rag and strapped to the under side of my saddle. As RDV and BustedKnuckle have stated tubularss are far superior. I cannot understand why anybody that races on a regular basis would bother with clinchers.

As for riding the cobbles Ambrosio Nemisis or Mavic Reflex with 32 spokes 3x, on shimano dura ace or campag record hubs. This is a no brainer.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Say what? Clinchers are at a disadvantage if you puncture? I get that pinch flatting a clincher is more likely than on tubs in the first place, but at least you can patch a tube (or carry a spare) should you get a puncture. If you're too weak to pump your tires up with a hand pump, you could always carry a CO2 inflator and a couple of canisters and job done.
What do you do if you puncture your tubs pray tell? SOL unless you have a support car with spare wheel...

For Flanders & Roubaix cyclosportif's, I carry two spare tubs (same as I use, Veloflex Roubaix), pre-glued with a strip of bakers paper (non-stick cooking paper) on the glued surface, then folded into quarters.
Puncture? Easy, pull off the old one, and put on the new one - Yes, I can get 7 bar into them with my mini-pump.

I can change a tub and get back on the road faster than most pulling a clincher and putting a new tube in.

Sorry to sound contrary, but what do you do when you tear a side-wall on your clincher? I have seen at least 5 or 6 persons standing sorrowfully on the road-side hitching a lift when they have destroyed their clincher on a sharp cobble edge.
One guy I rode with (or rather, started with) had a total of 9 flats in 2003 edition of Flanders, all pinch flats. He gave up after he used all of his patches, and bummed a lift to the finish. He was not too weak to pump up his tyres normally, but after 220km of pummelling on cobbles, he could barely get the tyre off the rim, forget about 8 bar from a hand pump.

His story is not so uncommon in that ride.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

Excuse my ignorance but I've been vexed by this question for a while. A) how long does it take to remove a well glued tub from a rim and what is the correct technique? and B) how do you prevent the pre glued spare from sticking to itself or the contents of your seat bag/jersey pocket?

To remove a well-glues tub takes less then a minute - use the wonderful yellow MICHELIN tyre lever (blunt end, not the hooked) under the tub, then work around, lifting the base-tape off the rim, when enough is removed, pull it off.

To stop it sticking to everything, use bakers paper (non-stick baking paper, from your supermarket cooking section). Cut a strip and fold the tub into quarters, tie it together with a piece of string at each end.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

When pavé is the destination there really is only one wheel set worth mentioning..... Ambrosio Nemesis, Record hubs. It's what cobblestone dreams are made of..

I shall beg to disagree - Ambrosio F20 rims, Tune MAG180/MIG75 hubs and Sapim CX-RAY spokes.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I shall beg to disagree - Ambrosio F20 rims, Tune MAG180/MIG75 hubs and Sapim CX-RAY spokes.

Really? Never seen any one ride RvV or Roubaix on your set up. Just sayin'

 

[Notso Swift]

Aren't F20's a lightweight rim? Same basic shape but 100g less


Close - Google tells me 430 g for Nemisis against 340 for F20's, supose that is close to a Reflex

 

[42x16ss]

Aren't F20's a lightweight rim? Same basic shape but 100g less


Close - Google tells me 430 g for Nemisis against 340 for F20's, supose that is close to a Reflex

That sounds about right. I wouldn't run F20's on cobbles - stick to the Nemesis. The only real alternative (IMO anyway) would be the Velocity Major Tom.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

Aren't F20's a lightweight rim? Same basic shape but 100g less


Close - Google tells me 430 g for Nemisis against 340 for F20's, supose that is close to a Reflex

I've built more F20's for climbers rather than rough roadies, but I did build some F20 sets for CX racers, so they can handle a beating. Ambrosio has three aluminum tubulars, Nemesis 430g, F20 360g, and the Montreal is 410g. They all have the same shape, same double eyelets, it's the thickness of the extrusion and the finish options that determines weight and price, and the Nemesis sports the external brass counterweight. I wouldn't use F20's on Roubaix like cobbles, but if it works for somebody, great.

 

[GreasyMonkey]

I've built more F20's for climbers rather than rough roadies, but I did build some F20 sets for CX racers, so they can handle a beating. Ambrosio has three aluminum tubulars, Nemesis 430g, F20 360g, and the Montreal is 410g. They all have the same shape, same double eyelets, it's the thickness of the extrusion and the finish options that determines weight and price, and the Nemesis sports the external brass counterweight. I wouldn't use F20's on Roubaix like cobbles, but if it works for somebody, great.

Maybe I have just got away with being lucky and not having any problems, or am a bit lighter than most rough roadies (67-68kg, in race condition).

My F20's get used for nearly everything except TT's, so I have never really seen the need for a set of Nemesis wheels.

 

[42x16ss]

Maybe I have just got away with being lucky and not having any problems, or am a bit lighter than most rough roadies (67-68kg, in race condition).

My F20's get used for nearly everything except TT's, so I have never really seen the need for a set of Nemesis wheels.

At that weight almost everything is bulletproof

FWIW I'm lucky enough to be in the same boat.

 

[dsut4392]

For Flanders & Roubaix cyclosportif's, I carry two spare tubs (same as I use, Veloflex Roubaix), pre-glued with a strip of bakers paper (non-stick cooking paper) on the glued surface, then folded into quarters.
Puncture? Easy, pull off the old one, and put on the new one - Yes, I can get 7 bar into them with my mini-pump.

I can change a tub and get back on the road faster than most pulling a clincher and putting a new tube in.

Fair enough. As a tubular virgin I wasn't aware that pulling a well glued tub off was so easy, and didn't think attaching a spare in the field would be so secure. Cost would seem to be an issue as well, tubes and patches are cheap.

As for you being able to do it faster than most could change a tube I'm sure you're right, but I'd warrant I could change a tube faster than most could swap a tubular. 99% of people have no idea!

Sorry to sound contrary, but what do you do when you tear a side-wall on your clincher? I have seen at least 5 or 6 persons standing sorrowfully on the road-side hitching a lift when they have destroyed their clincher on a sharp cobble edge.
One guy I rode with (or rather, started with) had a total of 9 flats in 2003 edition of Flanders, all pinch flats. He gave up after he used all of his patches, and bummed a lift to the finish. He was not too weak to pump up his tyres normally, but after 220km of pummelling on cobbles, he could barely get the tyre off the rim, forget about 8 bar from a hand pump.

His story is not so uncommon in that ride.

If I was particularly worried about doing a sidewall, carrying a spare clincher would be just as easy as carrying a spare tub...sounds like a case of being adequately prepared most of all. For routine riding I just carry a tire boot - I have a couple of pieces of tire sidewall in my MTB saddle bag for just this purpose. In my roadie saddle bag I carry a couple of banknotes as an all-purpose tool. Aussie plastic notes work equally well at patching a hunger flat (mmm, cake!) or booting a torn sidewall. Yes, I have had to boot both road and MTB tires a couple of times and it works fine (of course the degree of confidence riding it home depends on the size and location of the tear).

I was really just reacting to the "tubs are superior because you won't be able to pump your clincher up without waiting for a support vehicle" assertion, which however you look at it is a load of rubbish. There are many ways tubs are superior, but this simply isn't one of them.

 

[Fiemme]

Fair enough. As a tubular virgin I wasn't aware that pulling a well glued tub off was so easy, and didn't think attaching a spare in the field would be so secure. Cost would seem to be an issue as well, tubes and patches are cheap.

As for you being able to do it faster than most could change a tube I'm sure you're right, but I'd warrant I could change a tube faster than most could swap a tubular. 99% of people have no idea!



If I was particularly worried about doing a sidewall, carrying a spare clincher would be just as easy as carrying a spare tub...sounds like a case of being adequately prepared most of all. For routine riding I just carry a tire boot - I have a couple of pieces of tire sidewall in my MTB saddle bag for just this purpose. In my roadie saddle bag I carry a couple of banknotes as an all-purpose tool. Aussie plastic notes work equally well at patching a hunger flat (mmm, cake!) or booting a torn sidewall. Yes, I have had to boot both road and MTB tires a couple of times and it works fine (of course the degree of confidence riding it home depends on the size and location of the tear).

I was really just reacting to the "tubs are superior because you won't be able to pump your clincher up without waiting for a support vehicle" assertion, which however you look at it is a load of rubbish. There are many ways tubs are superior, but this simply isn't one of them.

Before giving everyone a bagging for suggesting you use tubulars instead of crappy clinchers to ride the cobblestones of belguim, try giving it a go. I can guarantee that you will understand everyones comments on the benefits of Tubulars over Clinchers once you have used them. Instead of being the in the 99% catergory of people who use clinchers and having no idea about tubulars, try being the 1% that do not use clinchers and reep the benefits.

You do not seem at all switched on if you use Aussie Bank notes to patch that ripped or split clincher. The simple Toothpaste tube works best, and as you said the size and location of the tear depends on your degree of confidence to ride home, you don't have this issue with tubulars. I also have huge doubts about your ability to change an inner tube faster than someone could change a tubular.

As for the cost of tubulars they are as cheap if not cheaper than using clinchers.