When is the smackdown on Chris Horner?

[Cycle Chic]

avoiding a positive

“Chris Horner updated his whereabouts with Usada before the start of the final stage, giving the agency the name of his hotel for the night, phone number and room number for his one-hour window between 6am and 7am.

so if a rider knows the exact hour he's going to be tested doesn't that defeat the object of a surprise test ? surely the rider then knows how to time the non-detection methods.

 

[hrotha]

so if a rider knows the exact hour he's going to be tested doesn't that defeat the object of a surprise test ? surely the rider then knows how to time the non-detection methods.

That's the one-hour window in which the rider MUST be available, but the tests can come at any time within certain limits, I think. It's just that you can't fault a rider for not being where he said he would be outside of that one-hour window.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

so if a rider knows the exact hour he's going to be tested doesn't that defeat the object of a surprise test ? surely the rider then knows how to time the non-detection methods.

They still don't know the day - to implement "non-detection methods" every day in advance of their nominate 1 hour window would presumably be very onerous and detrimental to doping regimes/training/racing.

 

[Ferminal]

I am still struggling with the whole concept of Horner's "numbers" in the Vuelta being as good as Froome's in the Tour. Given that Valverde and JRod were no further behind Horner as they were behind Froome (adjusting for V's echolon-split losses) we have to conclude that Valverde and JRod had completely recovered from their Tour efforts.

This seems unlikely, so my conclusions are:

1 - Froome's w/kg estimates are understated

2 - Horner's w/kg estimated are overstated; or

3 - The Tour and Vuelta routes were sufficiently different as to make like-for-like comparisons impossible

And we can add:

4 - Froome and Horner are both doping anyway.

Re Nibali, I also find it hard to believe he was in the same shape for the Vuelta as in the Giro. In the Giro, he was utterly dominant, whereas int he Vuelta he was grovelling. Are his Giro w/kg estimates distorted by the extreme weather that prevailed? Whilst Nibs goes well in the cold, this is relative to everyone else, and in absolute terms, climbing in extreme cold due to rain and/or snow is not condusive to top level performance. I hope this isn't a controversial suggestion - anyone who's ridden a bike knows they go faster on a cool/warm day than a freezing cold day.

This time the difference in routes isn't actually that much in favour of the Tour. The Vuelta wasn't even that much shorter (overall) than the Tour. Say in terms of stage difficulty before the climb:

Bonascre = Hazallanas
Peyresourde = Alpe d'Huez
Semnoz < Angliru
Ventoux =? Gallina (much shorter time wise but more climbing and terrible weather).

Although the Tour climbs are generally at higher altitudes (e.g. Pena Cabarga virtually rises from the sea). But overall just looking at the profiles it's hard to make a case for a huge difference. If you're really serious you can look at weather/average speeds/virtual rest days. You can get a different picture on the amount/difficulty of climbing overall at PRC http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/2013/01/30/comparativa-de-los-puertos-de-giro-tour-y-vuelta-2013/

 

[hrotha]

They still don't know the day - to implement "non-detection methods" every day in advance of their nominate 1 hour window would presumably be very onerous and detrimental to doping regimes/training/racing.

Nah, if that's how it worked you'd just have to take care of things a couple of hours before going to bed, and you're golden by the time the testers come in the morning.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

If you're really serious you can look at weather/average speeds/virtual rest days. You can get a different picture on the amount/difficulty of climbing overall at PRC http://plataformarecorridosciclistas.org/2013/01/30/comparativa-de-los-puertos-de-giro-tour-y-vuelta-2013/

Thanks !

 

[wansteadimp]

3b. Or Horner gets the good stuff on his own (how? new stuff is not off the shelf)

Bend, Oregon is not a million miles from Beaverton, Oregon where Mo Farah and Rupp are training with Salazar, maybe Horner is getting the good stuff from the athletes?

 

[barn yard]

daniel benson's article on CN regarding chris horner is pretty funny

 

[sniper]

Bend, Oregon is not a million miles from Beaverton, Oregon where Mo Farah and Rupp are training with Salazar, maybe Horner is getting the good stuff from the athletes?

interesting.

daniel benson's article on CN regarding chris horner is pretty funny

yap, it is.
no doubt that Horner is the redacted name.
i guess it would also explain why USADA started target testing him in 2012.

 

[gooner]

daniel benson's article on CN regarding chris horner is pretty funny

All the hallmarks and the reaction of a nervous man with guilt.

 

[pastronef]

I read that he had tickets from Valencia. So the hotel being next to a main highway which does not go through downtown Madrid and hence probably avoids a lot of traffic, might be a good idea if they were planning to drive early to get to Valencia.

Then again were there no hotels that were closer to Valencia available? Were they no good? Difficult to get to from all the post Vuelta necessities?

And why travel from Valencia and not Madrid, which has many more connections? Does he or his wife have an attachment to Valencia? Were the tickets back to Oregon cheaper from Valencia?

Horner lives in Denia, that's close to Valencia. I guess they would stop home before flying to Oregon

 

[heart_attack_man]

Nah, if that's how it worked you'd just have to take care of things a couple of hours before going to bed, and you're golden by the time the testers come in the morning.

I assume this is sarcasm, in which case - Chapeau! I Lol'd.

 

[zigmeister]

I am still struggling with the whole concept of Horner's "numbers" in the Vuelta being as good as Froome's in the Tour. Given that Valverde and JRod were no further behind Horner as they were behind Froome (adjusting for V's echolon-split losses) we have to conclude that Valverde and JRod had completely recovered from their Tour efforts.

This seems unlikely, so my conclusions are:

1 - Froome's w/kg estimates are understated

2 - Horner's w/kg estimated are overstated; or

3 - The Tour and Vuelta routes were sufficiently different as to make like-for-like comparisons impossible

And we can add:

4 - Froome and Horner are both doping anyway.

Re Nibali, I also find it hard to believe he was in the same shape for the Vuelta as in the Giro. In the Giro, he was utterly dominant, whereas int he Vuelta he was grovelling. Are his Giro w/kg estimates distorted by the extreme weather that prevailed? Whilst Nibs goes well in the cold, this is relative to everyone else, and in absolute terms, climbing in extreme cold due to rain and/or snow is not condusive to top level performance. I hope this isn't a controversial suggestion - anyone who's ridden a bike knows they go faster on a cool/warm day than a freezing cold day.

What Numbers? Nobody knows Froome's numbers. He wouldn't release them, whereas Horner did.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

What Numbers? Nobody knows Froome's numbers. He wouldn't release them, whereas Horner did.

Didn't you get the Clinic Memo? Horner's SRM files were doctored to make him look more believable and I don't think he released them for all the major climbs.

The numbers to which I'd refered were the implied w/kg for the winners of the three GTs this year on the major climbs that have been reference on this very forum. I think Hrotha or sittingbison provided a link to a Twitter feed quoting them. I don't know who'd calculated them.

If you'd read my post properly, you'd see that I didn't believe the Froome = Horner implied by said numbers given the performances of Valverde and JRod in the Tour (their first GT of the year) and the Vuelta (when they would still be tired from the Tour).

 

[RownhamHill]

daniel benson's article on CN regarding chris horner is pretty funny

It certainly is. Does anyone know what redacted rider 15 supposed to have done?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

On the final climb the big hitters were generally closer at the top than at the bottom. The final climb is the most meaningful as it's the only climb of the day when the big hitters are almost guaranteed to not be riding tempo.

Overall though, a winner from a break almost certainly rides harder that day than the big hitters do, but they don't do it day after day.

The mythical 6w/kg threshold for believability come from LeMond's performances on the final climbs of stages in GTs, which is another reason to focus on final climbs.

 

[EnacheV]

The mythical 6w/kg threshold for believability come from LeMond's performances on the final climbs of stages in GTs, which is another reason to focus on final climbs.

Who decided Lemond is the climax of what humans are capable in terms of numbers?

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Who decided Lemond is the climax of what humans are capable in terms of numbers?

He's consistently the fastest man to ride a bike up a hill who is widely held to have ridden clean, so he's the least bad benchmark.

 

[vrusimov]

Who decided Lemond is the climax of what humans are capable in terms of numbers?

Thanks to the myriad of confessed and caught dopers since Lemond we know what the doping assisted climax is!

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Thanks to the myriad of confessed and caught dopers since Lemond we know what the doping assisted climax is!

Well we thought we did, until Horner came along!

 

[Catwhoorg]

It certainly is. Does anyone know what redacted rider 15 supposed to have done?

The quote from Levi's affidavit is

"In 2008 Rider 15 told me that he was using EPO during his recovery from an injury in 2005 before the tour of Switzerland."


Its not enough to stand up in isolation at a hearing, but if USADA has more on rider 15 then maybe they could build a case.

 

[RownhamHill]

The quote from Levi's affidavit is

"In 2008 Rider 15 told me that he was using EPO during his recovery from an injury in 2005 before the tour of Switzerland."


Its not enough to stand up in isolation at a hearing, but if USADA has more on rider 15 then maybe they could build a case.

interesting. . . Thanks for digging this up and saving me a job!

 

[Benotti69]

Who decided Lemond is the climax of what humans are capable in terms of numbers?

Aldo Sassi i think is one.

 

[Netserk]

I am still struggling with the whole concept of Horner's "numbers" in the Vuelta being as good as Froome's in the Tour. Given that Valverde and JRod were no further behind Horner as they were behind Froome (adjusting for V's echolon-split losses) we have to conclude that Valverde and JRod had completely recovered from their Tour efforts.

This seems unlikely, so my conclusions are:

1 - Froome's w/kg estimates are understated

2 - Horner's w/kg estimated are overstated; or

3 - The Tour and Vuelta routes were sufficiently different as to make like-for-like comparisons impossible

And we can add:

4 - Froome and Horner are both doping anyway.

Re Nibali, I also find it hard to believe he was in the same shape for the Vuelta as in the Giro. In the Giro, he was utterly dominant, whereas int he Vuelta he was grovelling. Are his Giro w/kg estimates distorted by the extreme weather that prevailed? Whilst Nibs goes well in the cold, this is relative to everyone else, and in absolute terms, climbing in extreme cold due to rain and/or snow is not condusive to top level performance. I hope this isn't a controversial suggestion - anyone who's ridden a bike knows they go faster on a cool/warm day than a freezing cold day.

Or perhaps it's just easier to get away with more dope in the Vuelta?

 

[jam pants]

The comments here indicate the coming of a new (old) messiah!

"EPO in his fridge"; someone print up the t-shirts.