"When you have class, you cannot lose" - Vinokourov

[auscyclefan94]

After his victory in the Chrono des nations, Alexandre Vinokourov said "When you have class, you cannot lose". The guy says he has class but can't admit to being a doper. Please explain what goes through this guys mind?

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting from the big V, but I guess where we come from, 'class' means something different to where he comes from..

 

[Greg Johnson]

The guy says he has class but can't admit to being a doper.

Personally, I don't think dopers have class regardless of whether they admit it or not. The class is already gone by the time they get to the point where they decide whether to admit it or not.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

 

[Starlights]

Vino come back to prove that he wasn't doper.

 

[Ripper]

Simple

Class = Ferrari

 

[red_flanders]

"Class" has a different meaning in cycling than in the common vernacular.

In cycling, class roughly equals "talent of the highest level".

 

[flicker]

Eastern Bloc

I think that in their culture (Eastern Bloc) enhancements in sport is accepted as part of the training and competition.
When I raced in the USA we knew top US amatuers doped and of course the Europeans and Iron Curtainites. This was in the 70s.
When Eddie B. defected from Poland in the 80s and coached US olympic teams he brought the full easterndoping culture to US olympic cycling.
For Vino and Ullrich and the Eastern TdF sprinter this culture was normal.... thus classy.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I think that in their culture (Eastern Bloc) enhancements in sport is accepted as part of the training and competition.
When I raced in the USA we knew top US amatuers doped....

so what you are effectively saying is that enhancements in sport were similarly accepted in the US.

Sport in the cold was was an arms race with the goal of proving ideological superiority. We know that Eastern European teams were doped to the gills, but we tend to assume that the equally succesful American athletes were matching them on hamburgers and apple pie? Nonsense.

 

[poupou]

so what you are effectively saying is that enhancements in sport were similarly accepted in the US.

Sport in the cold was was an arms race with the goal of proving ideological superiority. We know that Eastern European teams were doped to the gills, but we tend to assume that the equally succesful American athletes were matching them on hamburgers and apple pie? Nonsense.

Did you missed Rocky IV? Lance missed it too, he is a Drago.

 

[Oldman]

I think that in their culture (Eastern Bloc) enhancements in sport is accepted as part of the training and competition.
When I raced in the USA we knew top US amatuers doped and of course the Europeans and Iron Curtainites. This was in the 70s.
When Eddie B. defected from Poland in the 80s and coached US olympic teams he brought the full easterndoping culture to US olympic cycling.
For Vino and Ullrich and the Eastern TdF sprinter this culture was normal.... thus classy.

Eddie B's entrance into US cycling started a new era, at least for awareness of cycling's involvement. I suspect that track and field preceded cycling but wasn't involved enough to know. Didn't the Austrailian athletic rise commence about the same time with Eastern European coaches' relocating to that country? Was there any single event that would lead Aussies to suspect things had changed?

 

[flicker]

A-rod

What I am saying is that we in America should not point fingers.
We can only not patronize cheaters.

 

[Escarabajo]

Personally, I don't think dopers have class regardless of whether they admit it or not. The class is already gone by the time they get to the point where they decide whether to admit it or not.

Cheers
Greg Johnson

But everybody deserves a second chance, and depending on the type of doping offense that a rider has done, if he admits it, confess it, and stop doing it, then it can be debatable whether that person has class or not.

It happens at all levels in our lives. We need to learn from our mistakes and admitting it is the first step. Not doing it again would be the next one. What about riders that come from dubious family morals? Is it their fault? Maybe yes, but he is more likely to start doping quicker than a rider with better moral principles. But the rider that doped would have "some class" by breaking through the wall of "cheating" by admitting it and stopping it.

Just my two cents.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Personally, I don't think dopers have class regardless of whether they admit it or not. The class is already gone by the time they get to the point where they decide whether to admit it or not.

I cannot agree with you there, Greg. I believe you will be compelled to admit that over the last 20 years doping has at times been so widespread that it existed in nearly the entire peloton, perhaps at times even down to an amateur level, pushing many riders to dope only to continue in the sport at all, or they wouldn't even be able to finish some races within the time cut off and quickly be out of work. As Alex Zulle stated in his infamous analogy, if the sign on the freeway says 100kph, and everyone else is driving 130kph, what do you do? This doesn't excuse doping, I'm not trying to do that, but merely state at times it's almost safe to assume that over 98% of professional riders were doping to one degree or another.

Confessing is to me a huge break that a doper can make towards salvation, and forgiveness. It's the only way they can make amends, and right whatever wrong they did. What you're saying is a de facto death sentence. At least as far as respect, or class goes.

 

[Willow22]

I agree partially with Greg, dopers have lost my respect, and show a lack of class, just by doping, whether they admit it or not. However, that is not to say that they cannot win my admiration back again, and prove they do have class. In fact, provided they get off the gear and prove they can do it clean, would perhaps show genuine class in that they have the guts to face up to their mistakes and not run away from the real hard work, when they have to do it clean. What I have heard about Cunego is starting to win back my respect, Basso is making tentative steps (maybe). I haven't even stopped being angry at Vino yet, let alone bring myself to start thinking he has class. His actions in not admitting, carrying on at the press conference like he can just stroll back in like everything is fine, have not helped.

 

[Beech Mtn]

I tend to agree with the idea that Vino is referring to "class" as talent level. Particularly since English is not his first language, and the comments may have been translated/interpreted.

But then Vino is my favorite doper, so there's that.

 

[ludwig]

In the past, Vino has described the Tour as a "show" and the riders as "actors". What he means is the Tour is a grand spectacle. Despite possessing the most dramatic and spectacular riding style of his era, Vino existed in the shadow of the comparatively boring Armstrong and Ulle for years, and Puerto robbed him of his opportunity to finally win the Tour.

Before you throw stones at Vino, it's important to note that virtually every other major GT rider of Vino's era has been tied to one doping scandal or another. Is it reasonable that Vino should have to be publicly repentant and beg for forgiveness if Armstrong doesn't have to? Think of it from Vino's perspective--why should he have to put on some false show of remorse for the benefit of delusional fans when he understands perfectly well that only someone on an advanced doping program could win the Tour. He would have to be a hell of an actor indeed.

Face it, the sport is only going to change when the sport's leadership and the majority of riders decide they are going to stop tolerating doping. Until then, positive tests are primarily about throwing sacrificial lambs to the media--as non Europeans, Vino and Kash were ideal candidates.

 

[Anonymous]

In the past, Vino has described the Tour as a "show" and the riders as "actors". What he means is the Tour is a grand spectacle. Despite possessing the most dramatic and spectacular riding style of his era, Vino existed in the shadow of the comparatively boring Armstrong and Ulle for years, and Puerto robbed him of his opportunity to finally win the Tour.

Before you throw stones at Vino, it's important to note that virtually every other major GT rider of Vino's era has been tied to one doping scandal or another. Is it reasonable that Vino should have to be publicly repentant and beg for forgiveness if Armstrong doesn't have to? Think of it from Vino's perspective--why should he have to put on some false show of remorse for the benefit of delusional fans when he understands perfectly well that only someone on an advanced doping program could win the Tour. He would have to be a hell of an actor indeed.

Face it, the sport is only going to change when the sport's leadership and the majority of riders decide they are going to stop tolerating doping. Until then, positive tests are primarily about throwing sacrificial lambs to the media--as non Europeans, Vino and Kash were ideal candidates.

couldnt agree more...

and like many he is still my favourite doper

 

[BroDeal]

In the past, Vino has described the Tour as a "show" and the riders as "actors". What he means is the Tour is a grand spectacle. Despite possessing the most dramatic and spectacular riding style of his era, Vino existed in the shadow of the comparatively boring Armstrong and Ulle for years, and Puerto robbed him of his opportunity to finally win the Tour.

Before you throw stones at Vino, it's important to note that virtually every other major GT rider of Vino's era has been tied to one doping scandal or another. Is it reasonable that Vino should have to be publicly repentant and beg for forgiveness if Armstrong doesn't have to? Think of it from Vino's perspective--why should he have to put on some false show of remorse for the benefit of delusional fans when he understands perfectly well that only someone on an advanced doping program could win the Tour. He would have to be a hell of an actor indeed.

Face it, the sport is only going to change when the sport's leadership and the majority of riders decide they are going to stop tolerating doping. Until then, positive tests are primarily about throwing sacrificial lambs to the media--as non Europeans, Vino and Kash were ideal candidates.

+1

I don't get the fans who buy into this whole scapegoat thing. They pile the hate on riders like Landis, Vino, and Hamilton but with Armstrong being given a free pass, none of it makes sense.

 

[Anonymous]

... Puerto robbed him of his opportunity to finally win the Tour.

I think he had plenty of opportunity in 2007 to finally win the tour, so I doubt a Spanish investigation 'robbed' him of that opportunity. He made the choice to blood dope in 2007, so he really robbed himself from where I'm observing

 

[the delgados]

Maybe Vino was referring to economic class.

 

[Anonymous]

Did you missed Rocky IV? Lance missed it too, he is a Drago.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

FAB

 

[Anonymous]

I tend to agree with the idea that Vino is referring to "class" as talent level. Particularly since English is not his first language, and the comments may have been translated/interpreted.

But then Vino is my favorite doper, so there's that.

vino is a kazak **** wit

 

[ggusta]

I think that in their culture (Eastern Bloc) enhancements in sport is accepted as part of the training and competition.
When I raced in the USA we knew top US amatuers doped and of course the Europeans and Iron Curtainites. This was in the 70s.
When Eddie B. defected from Poland in the 80s and coached US olympic teams he brought the full easterndoping culture to US olympic cycling.
For Vino and Ullrich and the Eastern TdF sprinter this culture was normal.... thus classy.

I tend to agree with this point of view.

Especially given the destitution of his homeland, I doubt many of his countrymen give a rat's rear end whether he is doping or not so long as he wins. It's pretty easy to sit in my soft suburban lifestyle and pass judgment on a guy or his culture. Millions of people there don't know where their next meal will come from; having something to be proud of regardless of how it was obtained gives them some sense of hope. Not saying it's right or wrong. It just is.

Add to that that our sense of fair play to them is a bit of a joke, and there you have it. It's a somewhat different model of what is right and wrong and acceptable or unacceptable.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Keep in mind that after Vino lost his appeals and "retired" he claimed that he would write a tell-all book blowing the lid on what happens. It didn't take long for the omerta to grip him again, and he's been completely silent on the issue of doping ever since. And judging by the UCI's reaction, that's just how they'd like him to be.

 

[usedtobefast]

i just want to watch vino ride his bike again. dope or no dope.