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Which is the worst form of cheating?

Three guys enter a triathlon. One of them uses fins to get an advantage in the swimming leg. The second one has a hidden motor in his bike. The third finds a short-cut in the running leg.

I'm not concerned here with how likely any of them are to get away with their cheating, nor how much of a time advantage they could gain. I'm just interested in how flagrantly they've violated the rules.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I'd probably call the runner the worst cheater, because he doesn't complete the required course. The guy with the motor is second, because some of his motion is accomplished without effort. And the swimmer least--but only relative to the other two--with something that enhances his natural effort.

And probably all of them worse than a chemical doper.
 
Merckx index said:
Maybe it doesn't matter, but I'd probably call the runner the worst cheater, because he doesn't complete the required course. The guy with the motor is second, because some of his motion is accomplished without effort. And the swimmer least--but only relative to the other two--with something that enhances his natural effort.
Probably yes, all of the examples are outrageous, but most people will agree with that order - if you first say that each of them saved an equal amount of time. To some people, the bike will be the worst, because it's the most-sneaky, and involves most thought, money, and effort invested in premeditated cheating.
To short-cut the run is a famously effective strategy :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosie_Ruiz
She won the Boston Marathon in 2:31, too bad she only ran half-a-mile
And probably all of them worse than a chemical doper.
This part I don't really agree with because the 'chemical doper' will have cheated in all three legs of the triathlon
 
Merckx index said:
Three guys enter a triathlon. One of them uses fins to get an advantage in the swimming leg. The second one has a hidden motor in his bike. The third finds a short-cut in the running leg.
I'd need to assume the short cut was done with wilful intent as it can happen accidentally. Hard to accidentally use fins or a motor.

None are as dirty as drafting though :lol:
 
The harder it is to detect or prove, the worse the offense. If a form of cheating is totally undetectable, its existence alone casts doubt on every performance, even a clean/fair one. Therefore chemical is the worst that I know of.
 
Only the swimmer is worthy of redemption.

And even then … that redemption should be meted out on a sliding scale in relation to mitigating (fresh water, non-wetsuit swim, zoomers) vs aggravating (salt water, wetsuit swim, scuba fins) factors.

I could not break bread with the other two.
 
Aug 2, 2012
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Craigee said:
It would be impossible to use fins in the swimming leg without anyone seeing it.
it would be impossible to take short cut....without being seen

unlikely to get away with motor use without being seen /heard

all just as bad..................and quite rightly get busted just the same.............
 
I'd argue that, if all other athletes in the race are clean and the amount of time gained by all three methods of cheating is the same, they're equally bad, since they will be keeping the same number of racers from getting a win, a medal or even just an improved placement in the race, and in the end that's all that matters in terms of fair competition.

Using a motor requires more intent and investment than the other two, though. I guess in terms of how shameless it is you could argue that it's worse. Taking a shortcut can be a spur of the moment decision during the race. Using fins is something you can decide to do just moments before the race starts. Using a motor requires a lot of time and money in advance to get the bike rigged with all the gear. Crimes are usually worse when they're premeditated.
 
proffate said:
The harder it is to detect or prove, the worse the offense. If a form of cheating is totally undetectable, its existence alone casts doubt on every performance, even a clean/fair one. Therefore chemical is the worst that I know of.
No way; chemical cheating is one of the least worst ways of cheating. And it's existence is just as detectable as many other forms.

The worst is when authorities, rivals or arbitrators have been paid off in some way - so that the result is beyond doubt. You don't need tactics or fitness to win.

Next worst is using something that gives an unassailable advantage over the competition (like a motor in cycling) that the result is also pretty much beyond doubt. Again, you don't need tactics or fitness to win.

Taking a short cut is pretty bad as well, but not as bad as bribing. Basically because you will probably get caught, so it's not great risk-reward and even then you might not win if you haven't done the training necessary to push the edge home.

Doping, by comparison, gives an edge. But you still have to train hard to get that edge and you still have to execute reasonable tactics in many situations. Plus you will have to beat other rivals who are also doping. So it's not as much of a short cut as the other options.
 
DFA123 said:
proffate said:
The harder it is to detect or prove, the worse the offense. If a form of cheating is totally undetectable, its existence alone casts doubt on every performance, even a clean/fair one. Therefore chemical is the worst that I know of.
No way; chemical cheating is one of the least worst ways of cheating. And it's existence is just as detectable as many other forms.

The worst is when authorities, rivals or arbitrators have been paid off in some way - so that the result is beyond doubt. You don't need tactics or fitness to win.

Next worst is using something that gives an unassailable advantage over the competition (like a motor in cycling) that the result is also pretty much beyond doubt. Again, you don't need tactics or fitness to win.

Taking a short cut is pretty bad as well, but not as bad as bribing. Basically because you will probably get caught, so it's not great risk-reward and even then you might not win if you haven't done the training necessary to push the edge home.

Doping, by comparison, gives an edge. But you still have to train hard to get that edge and you still have to execute reasonable tactics in many situations. Plus you will have to beat other rivals who are also doping. So it's not as much of a short cut as the other options.
I like it.
 
Merckx index said:
Three guys enter a triathlon. One of them uses fins to get an advantage in the swimming leg. The second one has a hidden motor in his bike. The third finds a short-cut in the running leg.

I'm not concerned here with how likely any of them are to get away with their cheating, nor how much of a time advantage they could gain. I'm just interested in how flagrantly they've violated the rules.

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I'd probably call the runner the worst cheater, because he doesn't complete the required course. The guy with the motor is second, because some of his motion is accomplished without effort. And the swimmer least--but only relative to the other two--with something that enhances his natural effort.

And probably all of them worse than a chemical doper.
If you are not interested in how much a time gain would be achieved by either form of doping, then it seems the question is moot. There is no difference at all.
The rider would seem the least suspect when showing up on the podium compared to the swimmer with fins.
The fins would be a giveaway. The rider would look at the fins and ask why.
The runner would have been long gone and skipped the podium ceremony to have a shower and eat a nice dinner at his hotel.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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Re:

Singer01 said:
the worst cheating is your best friends bird, or your birds best friend.
Speaking of cheating, this is from a cycling advice column. Breaks me up.

Ask Uncle Bob
Dear Bob
I’ve been racing for a number of years now and being a family man I’ve tried to keep my training to a set schedule so as to be able to give a lot of regular time to my family, which is something I consider important. Last weekend I was thirty minutes into my planned 5 hour training ride when the display on my Powertap power meter kept cutting out forcing me to head for home early as the training session was wasted. As I approached my house I noticed my cousin’s car on my driveway and the front bedroom curtains closed, even though it was only midday.
Upon letting myself into the house I could hear all manner of moaning and groaning coming from the upstairs which I found confusing. I headed into the hall and up the stairs where there were men’s and women’s clothes discarded on the floor. The noises coming from the bedroom were unmistakeably those of my wife in the throes of sexual ecstasy and although the bedroom door was almost shut I could see through the crack in the door as my wife was straddled naked over my cousin passionately riding him, completely oblivious to anything else.
I was so shocked at this sight it felt like I had become paralysed on the spot, I managed to avoid the desire to burst in and do something that may have put me in court before a judge and instead took myself quietly downstairs trying to work out what was going on and what to do. Eventually, in my state of confusion I thought it would be best to pretend I had never seen it and went back out to my bicycle and stayed out for another 4 hours trying unsuccessfully to figure out a way of confronting my wife that wouldn’t lead to the immediate breakup of our family.
Upon returning home my cousin’s car was gone so I pretended everything was normal and my wife greeted me with a kiss as she always does while watching television in the lounge. I’ve got no idea if this was a one off or if it’s been happening for a long time. I need to get it resolved but at the same time I still love my wife a lot even though I’m repulsed by the thoughts of her with my cousin.
J, London

Dear J
I’d just like to tell you that I’m sorry to hear of your misfortune, this is a hard thing for anyone to deal with. Primarily I would suggest you check the location and orientation of the Powertap receiver on the chainstay as this can cause problems as well as ensuring that the batteries in both the hub and CPU are fine. ‘Data drops’ can also be caused by some old versions of firmware in the Powertap CPUs which need to be upgraded to the latest version. This is an easy procedure to do by getting in touch with Powertap direct and should hopefully ensure you don’t have any more wasted training sessions.
All the best
Bob
 
Re:

Craigee said:
It would be impossible to use fins in the swimming leg without anyone seeing it.
I imagine you could have the foot equivalent of brass knuckles: a small, transparent piece that would fit over your toes and would have webs between them. The webs would fold up and be hidden when you got out of the water. This would not provide as large an advantage as regular fins, but of course, when cheating, any edge can make a difference.

DFA123 said:
The worst is when authorities, rivals or arbitrators have been paid off in some way - so that the result is beyond doubt. You don't need tactics or fitness to win.
Paying to win involves another form of cheating, though. You can't pay the UCI to win the TDF if you finish tenth on the road. You pay them to overlook your doping, or your motor, or to crack down on someone else's. Or you pay a rival to go easy at the finish of a race.
 
Re: Re:

Merckx index said:
Craigee said:
It would be impossible to use fins in the swimming leg without anyone seeing it.
I imagine you could have the foot equivalent of brass knuckles: a small, transparent piece that would fit over your toes and would have webs between them. The webs would fold up and be hidden when you got out of the water. This would not provide as large an advantage as regular fins, but of course, when cheating, any edge can make a difference.
Maybe to hide some kind of fins inside their wetsuit, thin bladed and squishy 'collapsible' ones, then put the fins on in the water. The wetsuits are not inspected, and if a hundred people are thrashing around semi-submerged, swimming nearby, no one would be paying attention to pulling the fins out and putting them on their feet below the water. Putting stuff inside the triathlon wetsuit is possible
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Bib_numbers_under_wetsuit_P4206123
The fins would have to be worth more than the time lost putting them on. I haven't even attempted triathlon, because my swimming form is so poor, I 'know how to swim', sort of - but I don't see how I could do 1500 meters without clinging to buoys or something. Actual swimmers would know if a 'fins' scenario is possible, such that it's likely to have ever happened

There are some real examples in amateur triathlon of people short-cutting the running leg and getting away with
it. That is for certain
https://www.marathoninvestigation.com/category/triathlon
Maybe sombody could even shortcut on the bike, if the course has a looped-back or repeated segment.
Merckx index said:
DFA123 said:
The worst is when authorities, rivals or arbitrators have been paid off in some way - so that the result is beyond doubt. You don't need tactics or fitness to win.
Paying to win involves another form of cheating, though. You can't pay the UCI to win the TDF if you finish tenth on the road. You pay them to overlook your doping, or your motor, or to crack down on someone else's. Or you pay a rival to go easy at the finish of a race.
Example of the latter one would be Vino. But Vinokourov first had to be in position to win, then both he and Kolobnev had to hold off Gilbert, not a guaranteed and reproducible scenario. So it's mostly the former, bribery and general coercion to look the other way, to not investigate a certain team etc. That's right. I wonder if there are examples of complete novices being declared winners of pro competitions through match-fixing - have to buy-off both the officials and the opponents to get them to throw the match
 
Re: Re:

frenchfry said:
Singer01 said:
the worst cheating is your best friends bird, or your birds best friend.
Speaking of cheating, this is from a cycling advice column. Breaks me up.

Ask Uncle Bob
Dear Bob
I’ve been racing for a number of years now and being a family man I’ve tried to keep my training to a set schedule so as to be able to give a lot of regular time to my family, which is something I consider important. Last weekend I was thirty minutes into my planned 5 hour training ride when the display on my Powertap power meter kept cutting out forcing me to head for home early as the training session was wasted. As I approached my house I noticed my cousin’s car on my driveway and the front bedroom curtains closed, even though it was only midday.
Upon letting myself into the house I could hear all manner of moaning and groaning coming from the upstairs which I found confusing. I headed into the hall and up the stairs where there were men’s and women’s clothes discarded on the floor. The noises coming from the bedroom were unmistakeably those of my wife in the throes of sexual ecstasy and although the bedroom door was almost shut I could see through the crack in the door as my wife was straddled naked over my cousin passionately riding him, completely oblivious to anything else.
I was so shocked at this sight it felt like I had become paralysed on the spot, I managed to avoid the desire to burst in and do something that may have put me in court before a judge and instead took myself quietly downstairs trying to work out what was going on and what to do. Eventually, in my state of confusion I thought it would be best to pretend I had never seen it and went back out to my bicycle and stayed out for another 4 hours trying unsuccessfully to figure out a way of confronting my wife that wouldn’t lead to the immediate breakup of our family.
Upon returning home my cousin’s car was gone so I pretended everything was normal and my wife greeted me with a kiss as she always does while watching television in the lounge. I’ve got no idea if this was a one off or if it’s been happening for a long time. I need to get it resolved but at the same time I still love my wife a lot even though I’m repulsed by the thoughts of her with my cousin.
J, London

Dear J
I’d just like to tell you that I’m sorry to hear of your misfortune, this is a hard thing for anyone to deal with. Primarily I would suggest you check the location and orientation of the Powertap receiver on the chainstay as this can cause problems as well as ensuring that the batteries in both the hub and CPU are fine. ‘Data drops’ can also be caused by some old versions of firmware in the Powertap CPUs which need to be upgraded to the latest version. This is an easy procedure to do by getting in touch with Powertap direct and should hopefully ensure you don’t have any more wasted training sessions.
All the best
Bob
That response had me cracking up, great stuff and I hope he fixed his power meter
 
Re: Re:

Merckx index said:
Craigee said:
It would be impossible to use fins in the swimming leg without anyone seeing it.
I imagine you could have the foot equivalent of brass knuckles: a small, transparent piece that would fit over your toes and would have webs between them. The webs would fold up and be hidden when you got out of the water. This would not provide as large an advantage as regular fins, but of course, when cheating, any edge can make a difference.

DFA123 said:
The worst is when authorities, rivals or arbitrators have been paid off in some way - so that the result is beyond doubt. You don't need tactics or fitness to win.
Paying to win involves another form of cheating, though. You can't pay the UCI to win the TDF if you finish tenth on the road. You pay them to overlook your doping, or your motor, or to crack down on someone else's. Or you pay a rival to go easy at the finish of a race.
In cycling, I agree, it usually would have to be done in conjunction with something else - though not always if you are paying off rivals for example. In other sports though, corruption alone can be sufficient.

Such as bribing a referee or paying off the opposition to lose in football; or deliberately throwing a match like they sometimes do in tennis. These forms of cheating are the absolute worst imo.
 

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