Who wants to know the truth more ?

[Andynonomous]

Although I have just joined this discussion group, I have been reading it for months. As well, I have been contributing to tennis forums which seem to have very similar discussions.

I have noticed that there are two distinct groups:

1) The accusers - These people suspect many of the top riders of doping, and often accuse particular racers.

2) The defenders - These people seem to believe that doping isn't as big a problem as the accusers do, and they vigorously defend their favorite riders.

(Of course some people can be accusers of some riders, and defenders of others, but most people are more in one camp or the other)


Which of these two groups do you think want to know the truth more ?

Why do you think the other group doesn't want the truth as much ?


This is a gereral discussion, and bringing up the fans of particular riders is not helpful (and will inevitably result in a deteriorating discussion).



Thanks for your input.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Although I have just joined this discussion group, I have been reading it for months. As well, I have been contributing to tennis forums which seem to have very similar discussions.

I have noticed that there are two distinct groups:

1) The accusers - These people suspect many of the top riders of doping, and often accuse particular racers.

2) The defenders - These people seem to believe that doping isn't as big a problem as the accusers do, and they vigorously defend their favorite riders.

(Of course some people can be accusers of some riders, and defenders of others, but most people are more in one camp or the other)


Which of these two groups do you think want to know the truth more ?

Why do you think the other group doesn't want the truth as much ?


This is a gereral discussion, and bringing up the fans of particular riders is not helpful (and will inevitably result in a deteriorating discussion).


Thanks for your input.

I disagree that there are two groups. I don't think it is so definitive as what you are saying about the clinic.

 

[red_flanders]

I think it's true enough to be a valid question. At least to my thinking, with exceptions, there are people who generally want the truth exposed as the way to cleaning up the sport and there are those who think the way to save the sport is to stop focusing on the doping problem.

I am firmly in the former camp.

 

[Andynonomous]

I disagree that there are two groups. I don't think it is so definitive as what you are saying about the clinic.

I have noticed that some people spend more time in the clinic defending, and some spend more time accusing. But I guess if you don't see the same thing, then this discussion would be meaningless to you.

 

[Berzin]

Polls for trolls, is what this thread should be titled.

 

[auscyclefan94]

I have noticed that some people spend more time in the clinic defending, and some spend more time accusing. But I guess if you don't see the same thing, then this discussion would be meaningless to you.

Yes but I take each rider/ds/other person's situation on it's merit. You can't stereotype these types of things. I will accuse the people who I think are cheats or are guilty and defend the people who I think are innocent and/or who are being accused unfairly.

 

[Andynonomous]

Polls for trolls, is what this thread should be titled.

How is this a troll thread please ?

 

[hrotha]

We accusers would love the defenders to be right. The defenders are the ones who stand to lose if they're proven wrong (what with their dreams being shattered and all that).

So I'd have to say the accusers want the truth more. The defenders only want the truth as long as it's their truth, otherwise they'd automatically become accusers (in that they'd believe everyone at the top dopes, not that they'd actually point fingers at anyone).

 

[The Hitch]

How is this a troll thread please ?

I dont think it is. I like your contribution to this forum so far. You think it exists which is my opinion and you accused nadal. So far so good

 

[WonderLance]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

 

[hrotha]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

But WL, most non-Lance riders aren't Spanish! How do you reconcile that with your thesis?

 

[WonderLance]

But WL, most non-Lance riders aren't Spanish! How do you reconcile that with your thesis?

Have they ever watched foreign cinema?

Evens doesnt dope either........he tries too hard. Even tho he does speak some dirty foreign languages.

 

[Andynonomous]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

LOL.

Thanks for your "unbiased" opinion.

 

[The Hitch]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

What about Bruneel? Hes foreign on the one hand, but on the other hand hates cancer. Is he a doper or not.

Remember when asked to name 3 dopers you said the following

Lance Armstrong, Johann Bruneel and ummm Lance Armstrong

 

[auscyclefan94]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

What about the spanish who rode for US postal?

 

[forty four]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

.....lol

 

[jimbob_in_co]

obviously the people who do not already know the truth want to know it. Me, I know who dopes..... the spanish.........and who doesnt........ Lance. Why would I want to know anything more?

"Captain, we've found their home planet"
"Tell me more, Spock."
"It appears to be 'Flatland'"
"This explains a great deal, Spock"
"Yes Captain, there seems to be a logical explanation to their continuous illogical statements and actions."
"Mr. Sulu, get us out of here."
"Aye aye, Captain."

 

[leftover pie]

 

[Andynonomous]

You wanna know the truth ?

You can't handle the truth !

 

[Slo & Old]

Most people can't handle the truth. I have worked in the legal system for 25 years as a fraud investigator. I have observed that both accusers and defenders readily accept the truth when it supports their position or their preconceptions and resist the truth when it counters their position. I have also observed that most accusers overstate the bad, most defenders overstate the good, the truth is usually somewhere in between, and the truth usually reveals some good and some bad that neither side anticipated.

 

[D-Queued]

Most people can't handle the truth. I have worked in the legal system for 25 years as a fraud investigator. I have observed that both accusers and defenders readily accept the truth when it supports their position or their preconceptions and resist the truth when it counters their position. I have also observed that most accusers overstate the bad, most defenders overstate the good, the truth is usually somewhere in between, and the truth usually reveals some good and some bad that neither side anticipated.

Lance has five servings of fruit and vegetables per day.

That is surprisingly good, isn't it?

Dave.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Hmmm, I do think doping is a big problem but don't spend (waste?) my time defending or accusing particular riders. Probably because I think that the riders are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't corner. And riders are just one of the branches on a pretty rotten tree with an even shakier trunk. I'm less interested in hounding the riders when the testing itself is as arbitrarily applied as it is now.

I am all for reeling in doping. But only if the chances of getting caught are the same for all riders, and there is a reasonable chance it happens in the first place. As long as samples are stored for all riders so we can come back to the samples in the future. And as long as there is a system that lets riders that pay reasonable attention to what goes in to their body never see their careers go down the drain through genuine unintentional contamination. Right now it is the testing regime that I find the real joke. Not the riders.

I have no problem enjoying the races regardless.

So does that make me a 1) or a 2) ?

 

[Andynonomous]

Maybe a different question then.

Hmmm, I do think doping is a big problem but don't spend (waste?) my time defending or accusing particular riders. Probably because I think that the riders are in a damned if you do, damned if you don't corner. And riders are just one of the branches on a pretty rotten tree with an even shakier trunk. I'm less interested in hounding the riders when the testing itself is as arbitrarily applied as it is now.

I am all for reeling in doping. But only if the chances of getting caught are the same for all riders, and there is a reasonable chance it happens in the first place. As long as samples are stored for all riders so we can come back to the samples in the future. And as long as there is a system that lets riders that pay reasonable attention to what goes in to their body never see their careers go down the drain through genuine unintentional contamination. Right now it is the testing regime that I find the real joke. Not the riders.

I have no problem enjoying the races regardless.

So does that make me a 1) or a 2) ?

Answer me this then.

If you had the chance to find out every rider/organizer/sponsor/fitness coach's involvement in PEDs, would you want to know it ?


I would, and suspect that some people would rather the truth didn't come out.

 

[Francois the Postman]

Answer me this then.

If you had the chance to find out every rider/organizer/sponsor/fitness coach's involvement in PEDs, would you want to know it ?

Probably, but not as a stand-alone exercise. "Truth" can only be a step on a road. Not a thing in itself. Without changing the underlying system, you'd just create a vacuum to be filled by the same problem. And without acknowledging that most riders really were trapped in a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, "Truth" becomes far too abstract a concept, and punitive, for me. It has to be truth for a purpose/solution.

I guess I am more pragmatic than some. I think when the past is so complicated and dirty and more or less unavoidable for key participants, sometimes the only (quick) way forwards is to get truth on the table, but not by completely rewriting the accomplishments of the past, and only if it lets the lot move forward to a better future. Think Truth and Reconciliation in South Africa, or Northern Ireland (bit heavy, but just to illustrate the principle).

Which were not fair and ideal in many ways. But reasonably effective. I'd rather have effectiveness than "ideals". To put "Truth" on the table as if it is the most important thing.... that's where I start to have reservations.

Still not sure if that makes me a 1 or a 2.

I'd much rather favour a sort of blanket truth-amnesty for the riders. Fess up and kick the habit, with a fair, effective and independent testing regime going forward, and with harsh penalties for transgressors from that point out.

 

[Andynonomous]

LOL.

You live in a very "shades of grey" world, and I live in one that is black and white.