Why are some Pro's so appalling at time trialling?

[B_Ugli]

I am always amazed that with all the power-meters, hrm's and technology to hand nowadays how some Pro riders are so poor at time trialling and their technique so bad.

The reason I say this is that when I used to race I would have training rides over a particular (lumpy) circuit 1 1/2 to 2 hour - to monitor my progress/performance. These would be timed and although I did them on my road bike gave me a good idea of my form. A lot of my specific training I did by myself with group rides at weekends. Consequentially I was used to hard solo efforts and technique and it showed in both my road racing and time trialling.

However a lot of other riders I know used to ride well in a group but if you went training with them by themselves were like a fish out of water. Some of them were also quite erratic in the sense they couldnt ride smoothly and stay in the saddle.

I wondered whether the solititude of solo training makes it impossible for some Pro's to turn out a decent time trial? Having said that surely most Pro's have to do some amount of training on their own?

 

[JayKosta]

In a stage race there might also be some 'strategy' involved.

If a rider is a team 'domestique' and doesn't realistically have a chance for a high ranking in a TT, then why bother exhausting himself?
Better to save his strength for the next day to do his 'real job'.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[TERMINATOR]

I am always amazed that with all the power-meters, hrm's and technology to hand nowadays how some Pro riders are so poor at time trialling and their technique so bad.

The reason I say this is that when I used to race I would have training rides over a particular (lumpy) circuit 1 1/2 to 2 hour - to monitor my progress/performance. These would be timed and although I did them on my road bike gave me a good idea of my form. A lot of my specific training I did by myself with group rides at weekends. Consequentially I was used to hard solo efforts and technique and it showed in both my road racing and time trialling.

However a lot of other riders I know used to ride well in a group but if you went training with them by themselves were like a fish out of water. Some of them were also quite erratic in the sense they couldnt ride smoothly and stay in the saddle.

I wondered whether the solititude of solo training makes it impossible for some Pro's to turn out a decent time trial? Having said that surely most Pro's have to do some amount of training on their own?

Time trialing - like most things on a bike - is mostly about genetics, not training. If you can time trial better than someone else, it has mostly to do with your DNA, not technique or training. The biggest myth in cycling is that pros train harder than average amateur cyclists. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Second, most pro's do not care about time trials because there is no reason to. The GC riders are all fairly good at time trialing. The riders who do not race for GC and are one-day riders and simply don't need to hone their technique at TT'ing.

The only time time trialing matters for everyone is in a team time trial during a Grand Tour.

Your analysis is somewhat strange to me. You start off with the questions of "why are pros such poor time trialists?" But then you offer your experience riding with your amateur buddies, as if that somehow supports your argument. You didn't so much as give a single objective example of a poor professional time trialist (do you expect us to guess?)

This is a very sloppy thread topic because it's so vague and gives no examples.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Time trialing - like most things on a bike - is mostly about genetics, not training. If you can time trial better than someone else, it has mostly to do with your DNA, not technique or training. The biggest myth in cycling is that pros train harder than average amateur cyclists. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Second, most pro's do not care about time trials because there is no reason to. The GC riders are all fairly good at time trialing. The riders who do not race for GC and are one-day riders and simply don't need to hone their technique at TT'ing.

The only time time trialing matters for everyone is in a team time trial during a Grand Tour.

Your analysis is somewhat strange to me. You start off with the questions of "why are pros such poor time trialists?" But then you offer your experience riding with your amateur buddies, as if that somehow supports your argument. You didn't so much as give a single objective example of a poor professional time trialist (do you expect us to guess?)

This is a very sloppy thread topic because it's so vague and gives no examples.

J-Rod and Gadret vs Cancellara. The first two are GC riders and they absolutely suck at TTing. Cancellara does not go for GC, is a oneday rider and rules the TT

 

[movingtarget]

I am always amazed that with all the power-meters, hrm's and technology to hand nowadays how some Pro riders are so poor at time trialling and their technique so bad.

The reason I say this is that when I used to race I would have training rides over a particular (lumpy) circuit 1 1/2 to 2 hour - to monitor my progress/performance. These would be timed and although I did them on my road bike gave me a good idea of my form. A lot of my specific training I did by myself with group rides at weekends. Consequentially I was used to hard solo efforts and technique and it showed in both my road racing and time trialling.

However a lot of other riders I know used to ride well in a group but if you went training with them by themselves were like a fish out of water. Some of them were also quite erratic in the sense they couldnt ride smoothly and stay in the saddle.

I wondered whether the solititude of solo training makes it impossible for some Pro's to turn out a decent time trial? Having said that surely most Pro's have to do some amount of training on their own?

Well as you probably have noticed, ex track cyclists are usually smoother riders and many are above average time triallists. The track pursuit riding and training has to be an advantage. You hardly ever see small guys do well in flat time trials. Some do well on the hilly time trials but as someone else said, body shape and size has a lot to do with it, I think.

A French rider from the past, Charlie Mottet was good for a small guy. I think the training, pro's do on their own probably does not involve time trialling much, more about getting kms in the legs and probably paced training or interval training or checking out climbs they know will have to be ridden in an upcoming race. With time trials it's probably done in the wind tunnel for testing a new position on the bike or trying out a new TT bike. Most teams will do some team time trial work before the TDF but I would'nt think it would be much. Cancellara and Martin maybe the exceptions as they are TT specialists and would be more keen on perfecting things more than the GC guys anyway. Most riders must hate the TT, especially the domestiques as they can't soft pedal too much; they still have a time cutoff to fall within.

 

[ciclistico74]

I am always amazed that with all the power-meters, hrm's and technology to hand nowadays how some Pro riders are so poor at time trialling and their technique so bad.

The reason I say this is that when I used to race I would have training rides over a particular (lumpy) circuit 1 1/2 to 2 hour - to monitor my progress/performance. These would be timed and although I did them on my road bike gave me a good idea of my form. A lot of my specific training I did by myself with group rides at weekends. Consequentially I was used to hard solo efforts and technique and it showed in both my road racing and time trialling.

However a lot of other riders I know used to ride well in a group but if you went training with them by themselves were like a fish out of water. Some of them were also quite erratic in the sense they couldnt ride smoothly and stay in the saddle.

I wondered whether the solititude of solo training makes it impossible for some Pro's to turn out a decent time trial? Having said that surely most Pro's have to do some amount of training on their own?

Everything else aside - It is very time consuming and a completely different animal from what they normally do. It's a different position on the bike with different equipment. If you're training 30 hours a week like most do when not racing then you're lucky to get even a few hours on the TT bike. More than that and you are compromising the rest of your training. And seriously, there are only a handful of top pros that really need to be good on a TT bike. For domestiques it is a formality and an unnecessary skill as they are pack fill in the results of a GT where TTing counts.

 

[Vegan Dave]

Outside of the 'pro' realm, it's interesting to see how local riders do in various disciplines... There are several cases of riders who slay me on the MTB (my technical skills aren't THAT bad), but in the local TT, the roles seem reversed.

In this case, i think it's mind over matter. On the MTB, it's often a TT (riders string out), everyone just going as hard as they can..but the difference is that there's a lot to occupy your attention.

In a TT, there are no distractions. It's really just 'go time', and the focus is very different. And the pain, i'd say, is more 'visible'.

I suspect this may be a factor in why someone who i KNOW has a stronger engine fails to produce on the TT course.

Another aspect of this has to do with resistance, ie, climbs. A large number of riders seem able to go harder if it's uphill - ie, they can sustain a higher amount of wattage on an uphill vs a flat.

I train on the flats as much as possible to overcome this, but something like this might also be a factor...

There's also the speed - many aren't as comfortable at higher speeds, and so tend not to go as hard.

As for the pros, i agree it's not often a useful gain for the team if everyone's burying themselves in the TT.

 

[The Hitch]

J-Rod and Gadret vs Cancellara. The first two are GC riders and they absolutely suck at TTing. Cancellara does not go for GC, is a oneday rider and rules the TT

lol. Owned.

 

[Granville57]

If a rider is a team 'domestique' and doesn't realistically have a chance for a high ranking in a TT, then why bother exhausting himself?
Better to save his strength for the next day to do his 'real job'.

To further this point just a bit:
Some riders will be under direct team orders not to go too hard in the TT, thereby conserving energy to ride in support of the team leader in the days following.

Landis told the story of arguing with Bruyneel about not having a time trial bike of his own to train on. The team felt is was unecessary, and Floyd was criticized by Bruyneel when he rode too well in a TT. Johan felt that it was an indication of Floyd focusing on himself more than the team goal of supporting "that other guy."

Which prompted Floyd to go ballistic in the next mountain stage and decimated the peloton in support of the team leader.

 

[Granville57]

I am always amazed that with all the power-meters, hrm's and technology to hand nowadays how some Pro riders are so poor at time trialling and their technique so bad.

This is one thing that has troubled me for awhile when watching either the TT or TTT. Personally, I think it's detrimental to the sport when you have the best road cyclists in the world falling off or crashing their bikes when going around a corner, under conditions that would otherwise not present a problem. It looks absurd to me, and I can only imagine how it looks to someone new to the sport.

I mean, I get it. TT bikes are hard to control, and deep carbon wheels can be unwieldy in the wind. But it makes the sport look ridiculous.

It could be argued all day long that some teams should probably train more for the TTT, but it appears that they simply don't, for whatever reason. Personally, I would love to see the TTT done on standard road bikes. Let's see what these riders can do on the machines they are most comfortable with. I love the pageantry and choreography of a well executed TTT, but unfortunately one of it's greatest appeals is lost on the viewing audience: the sheer speed with which some of these teams can ride!

TV coverage very rarely captures a sense of that. This is even more true with the Individual TT. Often, the riders look as if they're just slogging along at 25kph. It isn't until the on-screen speeds are revealed that one can tell any different. I would love to see more fixed-position camera work to give the viewer a better sense of how fast these riders pass by.

My point?
Well, if cycling is a spectator sport, and heavily reliant on a TV audience, then why does it matter how fast they go on their TT bikes if you can't even tell by watching them?

It would make for an interesting comparison if, in a Grand Tour, there were two TTTs. One with road bikes, one with TT bikes.
Just a thought.

 

[patrick767]

TV coverage very rarely captures a sense of that. This is even more true with the Individual TT. Often, the riders look as if they're just slogging along at 25kph. It isn't until the on-screen speeds are revealed that one can tell any different. I would love to see more fixed-position camera work to give the viewer a better sense of how fast these riders pass by.

That's an issue with TV cycling coverage in general, not just the ITTs. They show the peloton cruising along a very ordinary looking flat stage and it doesn't look like much. Then you see the reported speed of the bunch and if you think about it, you may have a "holy @#$@#, they're all going that fast on their bikes?!" moment like I've had at times.

 

[lanternrouge]

Well as you probably have noticed, ex track cyclists are usually smoother riders and many are above average time triallists. The track pursuit riding and training has to be an advantage. You hardly ever see small guys do well in flat time trials. Some do well on the hilly time trials but as someone else said, body shape and size has a lot to do with it, I think.

Again it's genetics isn't it? Levi Leipheimer is a good TT'er as is Porte and a certain Contatdor. All small guys.

 

[brianf7]

Some people can ride hard on their own and some need a wheel to suck its that simple all in the mind.

Some can sit still on the bike and some move every muscle in their body except the bowels.

some may do that as well.

 

[orbis_25]

First of all, we need to distinguish between GC riders and GC riders. Same thing, right? Ah, no. J-Rod and Gadret have done well in stage races, including grand tours. However, they really excel in the mountainous ones. Throw either of them in a tour with a large number of flat, ITT kilometers (or miles, if that's the way you swing) and they'd be slaughtered. So it's not just a case of GC riders being good and others being bad. GC riders can be awful too, but still ride very well overall when the route suits them.

Secondly, from what I understand, how well you ride a certain discipline depends on how much focused training you do. Say you want to climb well. The more climbing you do, then the (relatively) better climber you'll become. Or the more TT work you do, the (relatively) better you'll become at TT's. The downside of this is that it can blunt your effectiveness in other disciplines. So if I (an admittedly appalling TT rider) trained hard to improve my TT's, I'd probably notice a decrease in my mountain climbing. For a good climber, someone who can steal time away from rivals on the hardest mountain stages, there can't be a lot of incentive to dull their ferocity in their favoured terrain just to become moderately better at TT's. They'll still lose time in them, and while it may be less time than before, if they can no longer pull it back in the mountains then they're a worse rider overall.

Pah, TT's, how needs 'em?

 

[Granville57]

Just found this cool video of the 2009 Tour de France TT

Footage from the Annecy time trial. Video taken on an iPhone and edited on iMovie 08.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8PCADMblxg&playnext=1&list=PLD628A4003D737BD0

 

[locker]

probably the same reason some pros suck at sprinting and some suck at hill climbing

 

[B_Ugli]

Time trialing - like most things on a bike - is mostly about genetics, not training. If you can time trial better than someone else, it has mostly to do with your DNA, not technique or training. The biggest myth in cycling is that pros train harder than average amateur cyclists. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Second, most pro's do not care about time trials because there is no reason to. The GC riders are all fairly good at time trialing. The riders who do not race for GC and are one-day riders and simply don't need to hone their technique at TT'ing.

The only time time trialing matters for everyone is in a team time trial during a Grand Tour.

Your analysis is somewhat strange to me. You start off with the questions of "why are pros such poor time trialists?" But then you offer your experience riding with your amateur buddies, as if that somehow supports your argument. You didn't so much as give a single objective example of a poor professional time trialist (do you expect us to guess?)

This is a very sloppy thread topic because it's so vague and gives no examples.

You are right. It should be, Why are some g.c contenders such poor time trialists?

Clearly the gist of the topic isnt vague or sloppy as others who have commented seem to have understood it perfectly well........buddy.

My observation (not supporting evidence) was that amongst people I have ridden and trained with, those that were able to train well in solitude (as opposed to bunch riding) translated this into solid road and time trials performances along with a smooth and energy efficient style.

As I say merely an observation.

Take somebody like say Andy Schleck and Ivan Basso. These are guys that are basing their whole season around the Tour and their time trialling isnt that great and hasnt been for some years. Yet clearly they can ride smoothly on their limit for hours on end and probably do a lot of specific work to improve their time trialling. What is baffling is how they can do this kind of constant hard effort off the front of a race but not against a watch. It makes me wonder if as others have said it is part genetics but also perhaps psychological?

 

[movingtarget]

Again it's genetics isn't it? Levi Leipheimer is a good TT'er as is Porte and a certain Contatdor. All small guys.

Porte and Leipheimer true. Contador is not small at 178 cms or so. Thin maybe. I meant smaller than average.

 

[euanli]

Absolute power at FTP plays an important role in a TT. It can result in big differences between GC guys who all weight differently.