Why Armstrong and not Indurain or Ullrich

I find the action against Armstrong extreme in comparison with the other superstars of cycling.
There were strong suspicions of all three of them - Phenomenal timetrialists and very good climbers. Existing in the EPO, blood doping era. Associated with dodgy doctors.
Armstrong was brought down by the testimony of his own teammates. He did not test positive at any time. No amount of testing would have done it. Stripped of most results. Probably the most hated figure in cycling today.
Indurain tested positive once. But is still a legend of cycling. Not even a single peep from his teammates.
Ullrich tested positive once. Caught in operation Puerto. Thrown out of 2006 tour but no other action taken. Not much said against him by his teammates. Some shame but otherwise in a reasonable position.
I think it boils down to the kind of character that they had as well as the reaction of governments.
Armstrong - bully, vindictive, unrepentant. US - Strong action with witness
Ullrich - Humble, repentant. Germany - Strong action but no witness
Indurain - Humblest. Spain - no action, no witness

What are your views?
 
Jul 15, 2010
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lean said:
My view is that this thread is probably unnecessary. :rolleyes:
Why is it so hard for some people to pick up on the fact that of all the things Lance has done, doping is really the least of them?
 
"Be careful of the toes you tread on, they may be connected to the foot that wants to kick your *** tomorrow".

Also, Chris Boardman once explained the thing he hated the most about Miguel Indurain was that he was so nice that you couldn't even bring yourself to dislike him. Given the job Lance did of alienating people who knew stuff about him it's a veritable miracle of his PR machine's strength that he held on as long as he did.
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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Libertine Seguros said:
"Be careful of the toes you tread on, they may be connected to the foot that wants to kick your *** tomorrow".

Also, Chris Boardman once explained the thing he hated the most about Miguel Indurain was that he was so nice that you couldn't even bring yourself to dislike him. Given the job Lance did of alienating people who knew stuff about him it's a veritable miracle of his PR machine's strength that he held on as long as he did.
Indeed, theres an odd reality we should be glad as antidopers that armstrong wss such a sociopath...otherwise hed very likely have got away with it, and what little chance for change noe exists would be gone...
 
Aug 13, 2009
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IndianCyclist said:
Ullrich tested positive once. Caught in operation Puerto. Thrown out of 2006 tour but no other action taken. Not much said against him by his teammates. Some shame but otherwise in a reasonable position.
Ullrich was suspended for 2 years, paid a 1,000,000 Euro fine, Stripped of his titles, dismantled by the German media.....hardly "No action taken"

But nice strawman!
 
Aug 7, 2010
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What are your views?[/QUOTE]

You are spot on, but forgetting one thing:

North Korea wants to bomb Austin, using alleged conflict with the US as a pretext.

What did LA do to pi55 of the North Koreans enough for them to want to bomb Austin? Germany and Spain or not on their list.....
 
May 30, 2010
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Granted. LA got taken down because he was such a ***** to everybody. Indurain was largely a nice guy and got left alone. LA's biggest enemy wasn't Tygart but his own ego and personality.
There are plenty of Nice Guy former champions out there who will be left alone because they didn't railroad anybody.

Karma. There is no doubt that indurain was juiced to the gills but who gives a **** now? Nobody. Because indurain didn't rub anyone's nose in it.

As for Ulle. He has been punished a lot. But even that's under the radar. Nobody should expect a confession from him. He has done the crime and done the time.
 

martinvickers

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Fortyninefourteen said:
What are your views?
You are spot on, but forgetting one thing:

North Korea wants to bomb Austin, using alleged conflict with the US as a pretext.

What did LA do to pi55 of the North Koreans enough for them to want to bomb Austin? Germany and Spain or not on their list.....[/QUOTE]

You've obviously never heard of the infamous 2004 Tour of Pyongyang incident...never forgiven, never forgotten...well, ok, forgotten....but never forgiven....
 

martinvickers

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Oct 15, 2012
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enrecul said:
Granted. LA got taken down because he was such a ***** to everybody. Indurain was largely a nice guy and got left alone. LA's biggest enemy wasn't Tygart but his own ego and personality.
There are plenty of Nice Guy former champions out there who will be left alone because they didn't railroad anybody.

Karma. There is no doubt that indurain was juiced to the gills but who gives a **** now? Nobody. Because indurain didn't rub anyone's nose in it.

As for Ulle. He has been punished a lot. But even that's under the radar. Nobody should expect a confession from him. He has done the crime and done the time.
It's all part of the Omerta; treat the peleton right and they all know what side their bread is buttered. It's why Arsmtrong being asuch a **** is actually manna from heaven for fighting foping - it's a *****, just a *****, in the wall...
 
May 30, 2010
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martinvickers said:
You are spot on, but forgetting one thing:

North Korea wants to bomb Austin, using alleged conflict with the US as a pretext.

What did LA do to pi55 of the North Koreans enough for them to want to bomb Austin? Germany and Spain or not on their list.....
You've obviously never heard of the infamous 2004 Tour of Pyongyang incident...never forgiven, never forgotten...well, ok, forgotten....but never forgiven....[/QUOTE]

Never, never , never
 
IndianCyclist said:
Armstrong - bully, vindictive, unrepentant. US - Strong action with witness
Ullrich - Humble, repentant. Germany - Strong action but no witness
Indurain - Humblest. Spain - no action, no witness
As mentioned by others, lots of myth maintenancein your post.

Yeah, you kind of forgot Ullrich's fall from grace. I know it didn't get any English press, but there were real consequences to him. Do they show the TdF in Germany now? For a while there, they didn't presumably because of the doping scandals. (not just Ullrich)

For Spain, not only do they appear to maintain lax anti-doping criminal law, based on the way Fuentes talks and court testimony it appears they have a national doping program.

Behind all of this is the UCI and their aggressive delays of anti-doping enforcement since at least the late 1980's. They are making cycling stars!
 
May 27, 2012
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IndianCyclist said:
I find the action against Armstrong extreme in comparison with the other superstars of cycling.
There were strong suspicions of all three of them - Phenomenal timetrialists and very good climbers. Existing in the EPO, blood doping era. Associated with dodgy doctors.
Armstrong was brought down by the testimony of his own teammates. He did not test positive at any time. No amount of testing would have done it. Stripped of most results. Probably the most hated figure in cycling today.
Indurain tested positive once. But is still a legend of cycling. Not even a single peep from his teammates.
Ullrich tested positive once. Caught in operation Puerto. Thrown out of 2006 tour but no other action taken. Not much said against him by his teammates. Some shame but otherwise in a reasonable position.
I think it boils down to the kind of character that they had as well as the reaction of governments.
Armstrong - bully, vindictive, unrepentant. US - Strong action with witness
Ullrich - Humble, repentant. Germany - Strong action but no witness
Indurain - Humblest. Spain - no action, no witness

What are your views?
My view is that you are another useless troll.
 
May 27, 2012
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martinvickers said:
Indeed, theres an odd reality we should be glad as antidopers that armstrong wss such a sociopath...otherwise hed very likely have got away with it, and what little chance for change noe exists would be gone...

The good news in that is that Wigans is a complete tool, so sooner or later, somebody's going to go Sammy the Bull on him too!
 
Jul 15, 2010
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IndianCyclist said:
I find the action against Armstrong extreme in comparison with the other superstars of cycling.
There were strong suspicions of all three of them - Phenomenal timetrialists and very good climbers. Existing in the EPO, blood doping era. Associated with dodgy doctors.
Armstrong was brought down by the testimony of his own teammates. He did not test positive at any time. No amount of testing would have done it. Stripped of most results. Probably the most hated figure in cycling today.
Indurain tested positive once. But is still a legend of cycling. Not even a single peep from his teammates.
Ullrich tested positive once. Caught in operation Puerto. Thrown out of 2006 tour but no other action taken. Not much said against him by his teammates. Some shame but otherwise in a reasonable position.
I think it boils down to the kind of character that they had as well as the reaction of governments.
Armstrong - bully, vindictive, unrepentant. US - Strong action with witness
Ullrich - Humble, repentant. Germany - Strong action but no witness
Indurain - Humblest. Spain - no action, no witness

What are your views?
Witness tampering
Insurance Fraud
Perjury
Being sued by the federal government, insurance companies, and sponsors
Paid off the UCI to cover up positives
Tried to payoff USADA to get them to end their investigation
Got politicians to put USADA under attack for investigating him
Forced people out of their professions if they talked about doping
Told teammates that they would be kicked off the team if they didn't dope
Used a cancer awareness foundation for personal profit
Being investigated for criminal activity in Spain
Cheated other athletes out of careers in pro-cycling by doping

There really isn't anyone else in cycling to even compare him to. Doping is really the least of his offenses.
 
Jul 10, 2010
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My view is that this question HAS been asked, and answered, in other threads already, but I'm not sure I see the harm in letting it enter the conversation again - and then letting the thread die its natural death.

I would suggest interested parties refer to the Armstrong and Indurain main threads for further discussion, but I ain't shutting this one down at the moment just because it isn't entirely original. However, other mods will also review this, and they might close the thread. My nose will be fine, either way.
 
Zweistein said:
Witness tampering
Insurance Fraud
Perjury
Being sued by the federal government, insurance companies, and sponsors
Paid off the UCI to cover up positives
Tried to payoff USADA to get them to end their investigation
Got politicians to put USADA under attack for investigating him
Forced people out of their professions if they talked about doping
Told teammates that they would be kicked off the team if they didn't dope
Used a cancer awareness foundation for personal profit
Being investigated for criminal activity in Spain
Cheated other athletes out of careers in pro-cycling by doping

There really isn't anyone else in cycling to even compare him to. Doping is really the least of his offenses.
The above are excellent. Any single one of them would explain the difference.

But, the answer to this question can be found in the Tour de France record alone - even before Lance's records were expunged.

There are four five time winners of the Tour. Very impressive achievements.

Even if at least one was doped, and where one rider proclaimed doping to be a necessity, these are still impressive achievements.

Only one of those four did it in five straight. Apparently, even doped, it is not easy to achieve five TdF wins.

Then we have Lance.

Should anyone move an impressive sports record substantially, then the new record should be assessed closely to be certain that it was completely above suspicion.

In Lance's case, he tried to move the high water mark by 40%. That would be amazing.

This isn't the same as Barry Bonds. It is a completely new stratosphere.

Unfortunately, he cheated in every way possible.

That is why Armstrong and not Ulrich or Indurain.

Dave.
 
armstrong pushed the barrier and got greedy. If he would have stopped at 5 straight, there would be no investigation to this extreme. He was a jerk and that accounted for unwanted attention as well..
 
D-Queued said:
There are four five time winners of the Tour. Very impressive achievements.

Even if at least one was doped, and where one rider proclaimed doping to be a necessity, these are still impressive achievements.

Only one of those four did it in five straight. Apparently, even doped, it is not easy to achieve five TdF wins.

Then we have Lance.
Eddy could have won at least six, even disallowing the one he won when his chief rival crashed. And had Eddy focused solely on the TDF, to the degree LA did, he undoubtedly would have prolonged his career and could have won more. Probably the same with Hinault. Everyone recognizes that even with all the doping, LA's palmares are easily exceeded by several other riders. Winning a Giro or a monument may not be considered as impressive as winning the TDF, but winning 19 monuments and 5 Giros easily beats a couple of extra Tours.

This isn't the same as Barry Bonds. It is a completely new stratosphere.
Purely on the basis of tainted athletic accomplishment, Bonds was well beyond the LA stratosphere. He won seven MVPs, no one else has won more than three. When he set the single season HR record, his HR total as a % of at bats was 30% higher than Babe Ruth’s best season ever (and as a % of actual strikes he saw probably 50-60% higher). Another year he beat the previous walk record by more than 30%--while sitting out every tenth game or so to rest. That same year, he had more intentional walks than any major league team (the highest team total not counting Bonds' own team was barely half of Bonds' individual total), and nearly three times more than the most in a season by any single player in history other than Bonds. His career total of intentional walks is more than twice that of the next player.

Bonds was the most successful doper of all time.
 
Zweistein said:
...There really isn't anyone else in cycling to even compare him to. Doping is really the least of his offenses.
Let's not leave out embezzlement, suborning perjury, drug smuggling, possession and transportation of controlled substances without a license, distributing pharmaceuticals without a prescription, practicing medicine without a license, and money laundering.
 
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