Why people cheat

[Snapper19]

Re:

Because they come from Russia. Or at least, not from the UK.

Right, of course. Here we go again. I've heard you say that a few times already. So somewhere, somehow, on a particular chat room or similar (or you've dealt with journalists who are a waste of space), you've probably encountered a handful of delusional people who support team Sky (and even that weasel Coe - although that is stretching it). And unfortunately for the rest of the British population (some of whom probably visit this forum) that in your view represents the opinion of The Brits, as a nation and as a whole, to the last man.

Despite having a fairly wide circle ranging from colleagues, neighbours, retired athletes, current athletes, sports doctors, trainers and so forth .... all in the UK, spread over a lot of years, I've never met more than one or two who believe that athletes as a whole (including our own) are mostly clean. I could sit next to some random stranger on the train tomorrow and if I mentioned Sky, British athletics, British Cycling, or Coe - they'd be rolling on the floor laughing.

I get that there is some idiotic reporting out there, and most of us know where it comes from and why it's happening. And its f*cking embarrassing. But don't hate on the rest of us because of it, at least make a token effort to draw a distinction between who you are referring to and the normal population, we are a bit more cynical than you might appreciate.

There are quite a few others here who also echo your sentiment, and I have to wonder how long some of them have lived in the UK (if at all), and what circles they move in and draw their opinions from. I'm not convinced there's much first-hand knowledge.

 

[tantocomo]

Yeah, that's frightening. Another thing which I feel is inherent to doping psychology, aside from the belief they won't be caught, is a complete disregard for possible health consequences. They're happy to be guinea pigs, to experiment, while sticking their fingers in their ears and their hands over their eyes. Some of them will do anything, no matter what. That recklessness, wow. One element of having a conscience is that it forces you to consider the consequences (real, perceived, or rare) of the things you do. That seems to be rare in professional cycling.

Extrapolating this for recreational drug use I think this is absolutely spot on.

 

[Snapper19]

And another thing - when one's moral compass points towards oneself, there is a great tendency towards hypocrisy. There is one set of rules for you, and another set for everyone else. Rather like the dopers who condemn other dopers ( David Miller, much?) especially when those dopers might be doping better than you and winning more than you. Being an anti-doping doper puts the right message out there.

I'm reminded of an incident a few years ago at a social evening when a guy I knew, the husband of one of my friends, was playing poker with some mates. Just small stakes, a few quid. He was a known steroid user, but when one of his friends (half jokingly) stiffed him out of his winnings he was hugely affronted - accusing his opponent of cheating and being unsporting. Hilarious. If it was pointed out that his drug use could, quite possibly, also fall into the realms of cheating, he would be hugely defensive. The thing is, he had no choice but to take steroids, but it's different in poker. And let's face it, in his sport most people are doing drugs, so that makes it normal - whereas there are apparently not as many cheats in poker. Plus people who cheat at poker are doing it for the money. Plus athletics was his boyhood dream, and his livelihood - all perfectly good and healthy reasons to do drugs. Whereas no one dreams of being a poker player. This knucklehead was the kind of guy who would cut you up to get the last parking space, or grab the last piece of pizza out of your hands. Selflessness personified.

 

[Snapper19]

I think being honest makes life so much easier for most people. If an inherently honest person cheats, he or she is likely to face a good deal of mental and emotional wrangling, which can be distressing or even damaging. That is of course another mark of 'conscience'. That is why most normal folk tend to minimise dishonest deeds to a few white lies and the odd fib, and usually there is a positive reason behind it.

But if you lack that moral fibre, then perhaps you can achieve great things in certain arenas without the inconvenient burden of worrying about your mental (or physical) state.

One of the reasons I've been venting on this subject is that in my profession I encounter cheating routinely. It means that other people are making money from my work, cutting the corners which normally involve great effort, talent and overheads. When I find them, I send an invoice or take them to court. But it must be hideous to be a clean athlete knowing that there is virtually nothing you can do but quit or lose (and the people who leave are not in a minority, as some will have us think). Do the dopers ahead of you feel guilty about that? I'm sure they don't, they probably feel contempt and regard you as weak for failing to do what they consider as merely necessary. They're laughing all the way to the bank. I've caught the same person twice for stealing my work - and each time he started off by making excuses and by denying, and when the evidence put before him became indisputable he would give bleating apologies in an attempt to elicit empathy. Then he took a breather and came back and did it all over again. Yes, cheats usually keep on cheating. I have a really hard time taking on board the notion of the reformed doper, mostly because I haven't actually come across one. Why make life unnecessarily difficult for oneself when there is a much easier route? That is how cheats think, and they will keep on thinking that no matter what. This is why rehabilitation seems so improbable.

Doesn't matter if it's cycling, the financial markets, or any other kind of test - the MO is usually the same. If an unconscionable person believes he or she can gain an unfair advantage then they will. We can cut the nonsense about deprived childhoods and being bullied in the schoolyard - many of us have been through that. But, for most, as we mature we take on a sense of responsibility and accountability, and that is generally hard to change. This is partly why I struggle with the notion that many professional cyclists are ingrained in their careers before they are 'forced' to turn to doping, and insist they're at a point when they cannot easily walk away. I think that the vast majority of athletes will understand from a relatively early stage that doping is likely to be part of their future (at least in some sports), and so the die is cast long ago. The earlier the better in fact, because it is apparently harder to turn the mind of a more mature contender. If this were not the case, then I think we would see far more athletes abandoning their profession and happily telling us why.

Why do husbands or wives cheat, when they have an otherwise satisfactory partner who treats them well? The need for excitement, an ego boost, and commonly a sense of entitlement borne of selfishness. And once again the belief they will not be caught, even though statistically most unfaithful partners are. And when their spouse suspects what they are doing, there are endless and increasingly elaborate excuses, against a ton of evidence which is not quite direct enough to elicit a confession (that will only come when they are caught in flagrante delicto). Then the downfall, the promises, the pleas for forgiveness and another chance. How often do cheating partners re-cheat? I don't know, but my husband elevated disloyalty to a fine art.

We will all encounter cheating in our lives, in one way or another. And dealing with it can be really tiresome.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I don't accept it has anything to do with entitlement.

Stealing is cheating.

Any non-entitled poor person is going to steal as readily as any enabled wealthy person.

Entitlement. Good grief.

 

[Snapper19]

Re:

I don't accept it has anything to do with entitlement.

Stealing is cheating.

Any non-entitled poor person is going to steal as readily as any enabled wealthy person.

Entitlement. Good grief.

I have seen a very deep sense of entitlement amongst cheats (and I have dealt with them on a fairly personal level at times). Actually I do think that a great many athletes feel that cheating is their right - and that is very much the mark of entitlement, if not the very definition of it. Some disadvantaged people steal because they feel they have the right to take the property of others - bitterness and envy can breed entitlement. So can extreme competitiveness (as in 'I work incredibly hard at this and I am entitled to seek every reward'). Self importance (irrespective of socio-economic background) breeds entitlement. Narcissism breeds entitlement. And those are all traits that we commonly see in cheats, rich or poor.

 

[The Hitch]

Slightly off topic question, but one to ponder.

Does being banned on a forum and then registering on the same forum under a new user name to circumvent the ban, count as cheating?

 

[Snapper19]

Re:

Slightly off topic question, but one to ponder.

Does being banned on a forum and then registering on the same forum under a new user name to circumvent the ban, count as cheating?

I don't know, I think you could argue that. It could depend on whether the person denied their previous identity and posts, hid behind anonymity, and if they continued to contravene whatever rule had caused them to be banned in order to pursue whatever message they had in mind. I imagine some of the people who've been discussed on the forum might run to that.

On a slightly confused note - was that directed at me? I registered on the forum (for the first time) a few days ago and have only ever posted under one username. I had a nightmare signing up - this was my third attempt over the last few weeks. The first two attempts didn't work, I tried a fresh attempt using a different username and e-mail combination (still no confirmation link arrived for activation, which was the issue) but the most recent attempt (using a different email account which allowed the activation link to come through) worked for some reason. Are you suspecting me of being someone else? The mods would be able to clarify that for you (as well as what I've just said) - I have no previous posting history. Edit: I have been a lurker for several months before deciding to take part - I have a long held anti-doping sentiment which I appreciate not everyone will agree with, but I think it broadly aligns with forum ethos. I am based in England as you've seen from my response to you earlier, which I suspect might have made me unpopular with some, though for reasons I still can't fathom.

Edit 2: On further consideration, the forum seems to attract a small pool of dedicated contributors so perhaps I should tell you more about myself. I am a middle-aged female living in the South of England whose athletics career was very short lived (never even got off the ground) - eventually petering out in my late 20s (that is over 20 years ago now) but I follow some sports fairly closely. I couldn't continue cycling due to knee surgery, also in my 20s. I now run a small business (not sport related) which I have done for the last decade. My contacts in sport amount to the people I used to train with, their offspring and partners who in some cases also have an athletics background in some capacity, and more recent knowledge. So understanding that doping is widespread is nothing new to me and I have pretty much lost all hope on that front. I understand that there must be a lot of people who come to the forum to troll, perhaps some of the characters who are discussed at length in some threads. I am not one of them and will be happy to discuss by PM if it reassures you.

 

[Irondan]

Re:

Slightly off topic question, but one to ponder.

Does being banned on a forum and then registering on the same forum under a new user name to circumvent the ban, count as cheating?

I would say so, yes. It's the same mindset that rules don't apply to the person that's cheating or any other dishonest thing cheaters do in their lives.

 

[whynotme101]

Very good article on the dynamics of cheating and human behaviour to it. Some interesting studies referenced(one new one, links provided in article).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/02/08/why-winners-become-cheaters/?

It kinda annoys me just in the first paragraph "When Lance Armstrong was found guilty of doping a few years ago, the sports world was aghast. For almost a decade, he had dominated cycling so thoroughly that the thought of anyone else winning bordered on ridiculous." - written by someone who has heard of no races other than the Tour de France

 

[MarkvW]

Sporting rules are arbitrary. When those rules are corruptly made or enforced, how do you evaluate the people who refuse to follow those rules? And how do you evaluate the people who knowingly elect to participate in a corruptly regulated sport?

Pro cycling is a cesspool. Why bother?

 

[Snapper19]

Re:

Sporting rules are arbitrary. When those rules are corruptly made or enforced, how do you evaluate the people who refuse to follow those rules? And how do you evaluate the people who knowingly elect to participate in a corruptly regulated sport?

Pro cycling is a cesspool. Why bother?

I think that is also broadly the same in government and in the upper echelons of large conglomerates. Rules are bent or circumvented according to who you are. It can happen wherever there is potential to exercise control, and/or financial or political gain. Anyone with a dead straight moral compass is unlikely to fit in. Idealists never seem to go very far in life.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Re:

Slightly off topic question, but one to ponder.

Does being banned on a forum and then registering on the same forum under a new user name to circumvent the ban, count as cheating?

Yes, it most certainly would do.

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Sporting rules are arbitrary. When those rules are corruptly made or enforced, how do you evaluate the people who refuse to follow those rules? And how do you evaluate the people who knowingly elect to participate in a corruptly regulated sport?

Pro cycling is a cesspool. Why bother?

I think that is also broadly the same in government and in the upper echelons of large conglomerates. Rules are bent or circumvented according to who you are. It can happen wherever there is potential to exercise control, and/or financial or political gain. Anyone with a dead straight moral compass is unlikely to fit in. Idealists never seem to go very far in life.

I would use the law to deny athletic federations or promoters any right to tell any athlete where he or she may compete, and make it worthwhile for the athlete to sue the federation/promoter if that law is violated. Also, athletes must be able to affiliate with as many federations as they want.

The core problem is that federations exist to serve the Verbruggens and Blatters of the world, and not the athletes. These federations are evil monopolies that need competition.

A little competition might help create a fairer environment where honorable people could compete with pride.

 

[Archibald]

Re: Re:

Sporting rules are arbitrary. When those rules are corruptly made or enforced, how do you evaluate the people who refuse to follow those rules? And how do you evaluate the people who knowingly elect to participate in a corruptly regulated sport?

Pro cycling is a cesspool. Why bother?

I think that is also broadly the same in government and in the upper echelons of large conglomerates. Rules are bent or circumvented according to who you are. It can happen wherever there is potential to exercise control, and/or financial or political gain. Anyone with a dead straight moral compass is unlikely to fit in. Idealists never seem to go very far in life.

tax "cheat" comes to mind...

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Re: Re:

Because they come from Russia. Or at least, not from the UK.

Right, of course. Here we go again. ...

I think you are totally missing Hitch's point. If I understand his comment correctly he is being cynical and tongue in cheek, i.e. if you are from Russia you must be a cheat because everyone in Russia cheats (not true) but if you are from the UK no one cheats because Brits are so pristine clean (not true).