Wiggins Sports Scientist work for English Rugby

[Mongol_Waaijer]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/19/rfu-bradley-wiggins-british-cycling

As part of their bid to win the next rugby world cup on home soil the England RFU have hired Brad Wiggins's sports scientist.

English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route

There was some suspicion of doping the last time England made a dedicated bid to win the World Cup. They seemed stronger and fitter than the opposition, and at one stage managed to hold off a furious assault on their tryline by New Zealand with 2 forwards in the sin bin.

The NZ media dubbed them 'white orcs on steroids'

If you look at photos of the faces of players from that team you'll see some interesting changes. I wasn't aware there was an exercise that could broaden one's jawbone and forehead.

Interestingly the coach of England during their dominant era was Clive Woodward - who, as Director of Elite Performance for the British Olympian Association, has just overseen GB's most succesful Olympic medal haul ever on home soil.

 

[hawthorner]

Well that's proof (of nothing at all), if I ever saw any.

 

[sniper]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/19/rfu-bradley-wiggins-british-cycling

As part of their bid to win the next rugby world cup on home soil the England RFU have hired Brad Wiggins's sports scientist.

English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route

There was some suspicion of doping the last time England made a dedicated bid to win the World Cup. They seemed stronger and fitter than the opposition, and at one stage managed to hold off a furious assault on their tryline by New Zealand with 2 forwards in the sin bin.

The NZ media dubbed them 'white orcs on steroids'

If you look at photos of the faces of players from that team you'll see some interesting changes. I wasn't aware there was an exercise that could broaden one's jawbone and forehead.

Interestingly the coach of England during their dominant era was Clive Woodward - who, as Director of Elite Performance for the British Olympian Association, has just overseen GB's most succesful Olympic medal haul ever on home soil.

marginal gains.

"We are obsessed with getting the details right; we are relentless in pursuit of it. It's not easy for other federations to do, because of the details involved. It's about everyone being the best they can be – the carer not leaving anything behind, the mechanic testing everything – but it's not just two weeks. It's two months, two years. When you put that in place, your chances of success are higher."

I assume it would be extra bitter if you get all those details in place, and you get beaten by a bunch of dopers.

amazing really, with what we know about cycling, how many clinicians still buy that marginal gains crap, at least when JV is selling it.

Interesting detail about Woodward. Spanish practice: put PED-enablers in leading positions at a national level. More and more this is starting to look like state-sponsored doping. The current strength and width of British sports is suspect, I'd say, especially the results in disciplines where they've traditionally been ****ty, e.g. tennis and cycling.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Interesting detail about Woodward. Spanish practice: put PED-enablers in leading positions at a national level. More and more this is starting to look like state-sponsored doping. The current strength and width of British sports is suspect, I'd say, especially the results in disciplines where they've traditionally been ****ty, e.g. tennis and cycling.

I was long suspicious of rugby, especially the England team under Woodward. They were obsessed with marginal gains and micro management back then way before Brailsford and in just a few seasons went from being unable to challenge NZ and Australia to dominating them. I find it hard to believe that in a collision sport where strength, power and recovery are vital, there was no pushing of the envelope in the direction of a medical program. Especially with rugby's ineffective testing that focusses on recreationals (following the lead from tennis - if we are seen to be busting people for marijuana and cocaine then nooone could assume anyone is getting away with EPO)

Rugby players are now starting to look bigger and more athletic than NFL players, while at least NFL players have the decency to have been huge and ripped all their careers. Many rugby players have undergone such dramatic transformations in recent years it is hardly credible.

 

[del1962]

Perhaps Rugby does have a problem but you would hardly put England based on results at the top of the list, I would have more suspicions about Australia and Ireland, and based on the number of people that play Rugby in Scotland (a rural belt south of Glasgow/Edinborough) it amazes mean they can compete in the six nations

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Perhaps Rugby does have a problem but you would hardly put England based on results at the top of the list, I would have more suspicions about Australia and Ireland, and based on the number of people that play Rugby in Scotland (a rural belt south of Glasgow/Edinborough) it amazes mean they can compete in the six nations

English rugby has recently tended to be lower priority on attack skills and more into the 'gym bunny' culture than other nations. Forward power has been a strong cultural theme in the English game and the tactics have been based on domination up front at the expense of other areas. Plus the English club league is uniquely brutal and one dimensional compared to the faster paced more mobile Southern hemisphere game.

 

[JimmyFingers]

I was long suspicious of rugby, especially the England team under Woodward. They were obsessed with marginal gains and micro management back then way before Brailsford and in just a few seasons went from being unable to challenge NZ and Australia to dominating them. I find it hard to believe that in a collision sport where strength, power and recovery are vital, there was no pushing of the envelope in the direction of a medical program. Especially with rugby's ineffective testing that focusses on recreationals (following the lead from tennis - if we are seen to be busting people for marijuana and cocaine then nooone could assume anyone is getting away with EPO)

Rugby players are now starting to look bigger and more athletic than NFL players, while at least NFL players have the decency to have been huge and ripped all their careers. Many rugby players have undergone such dramatic transformations in recent years it is hardly credible.

I think if you are going to make a statement like that in this context you need to quantify it: how many seasons did it take them to develop the squad into one capable of beating the best in the world? Also can you define 'domination'? They won the final with a last minute drop goal.

That England squad in 2003 was veteran, a very-well organised team that had been playing together for years and showed clear progression right up untilt the moment they won it. Or is it only Southern Hemisphere teams that are allowed to do so? 4 years later an unfancied England got to the final again and missed out narrowly to SA. I take it they were on PEDs too? Presumably the squad we sent to NZ had left theirs at home because they were abysmal.

Just to point out, England has the largest rugby union playing population in the world. If anything we consistently under-perform against countries who pick from far-smaller pools of talent. Presumably why they go and nick them from the Pacific Islands

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

I know the final was a close game but they beasted the Aussie scrum all that day.

I also think NZ were humiliated at not being able to power over from 1m out in numerous attempts with 2 extra forwards.

It is more that massive quicktime bulking up of some of the players on that team that concerned me at the time.

But I have concerns about NZ too - I read somewhere that players were putting on several kilos of muscle at a pre season training camp that also involved a great deal of running around. Jerry Collins apparently was asked to lay off the dumbells as his biceps were getting too big to carry the ball properly.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

. Presumably why they go and nick them from the Pacific Islands

England have Manu Tuilagi and Maki Vunipola in their current squad. Born in Samoa and Tonga respectively. Move to England as rugby players to become pro rugby players for English clubs. And number 8 Thomas Waldron was born in NZ and spent all his life there until he realised he wasn't good enough to play for NZ but had an English grandmother. That's 3 nicked from Pacific Islands for you somewhat closer to home.

I believe virtually all the Polynesians who have played for NZ / Aus were either born in NZ or moved there as children, before they even began playing rugby. It also works both ways - a lot of guys who play for Tonga, Samoa or Fiji were born and grew up in NZ.

The reason why there are so many great NZ based rugby players of Polynesian origin is more the coupling of islanders having incredibly suitable physiques for rugby, coupled with being coached as youths in NZ.

If any countries are f&*king over the Pacific islanders right now it's England and France whose clubs won't release Fijian, Tongan and Samoan players for international duty, meaning they have to put out their second XV against top international opposition.

 

[JVs_jumper]

England success in 2003 was largely due to having the best goal kicker in the game at the time in Wilkinson and their use of the 'un-defendable' truck and trailer which if you tried to stop you would concede a penalty.

The t and t is a classic example of a marginal gain - invent a move that sits between the laws of the game to get enough penalty kicks for your best player to convert. It has since been banned.

Not saying that they weren't rampant roid abusers but there was certainly clever rule interpretation going on...

 

[adamski101]

I know the final was a close game but they beasted the Aussie scrum all that day.

I also think NZ were humiliated at not being able to power over from 1m out in numerous attempts with 2 extra forwards.

It is more that massive quicktime bulking up of some of the players on that team that concerned me at the time.

But I have concerns about NZ too - I read somewhere that players were putting on several kilos of muscle at a pre season training camp that also involved a great deal of running around. Jerry Collins apparently was asked to lay off the dumbells as his biceps were getting too big to carry the ball properly.

The Australian scrum has been weak for years, even back in 2003. Also England did not play NZ during the 2003 world cup, i think the match you are referring to was played earlier that year in June 2003. England were down two forwards at one point, but it was not for a full ten minutes and also while England had two in Sin Bin the All Blacks had one, so England were never actually two on the field at any point in the game.

 

[del1962]

English rugby has recently tended to be lower priority on attack skills and more into the 'gym bunny' culture than other nations. Forward power has been a strong cultural theme in the English game and the tactics have been based on domination up front at the expense of other areas. Plus the English club league is uniquely brutal and one dimensional compared to the faster paced more mobile Southern hemisphere game.

Thats clinic talk for EPO

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Thats clinic talk for EPO

A guy I know plays semipro in SA, and says roid use is rampant and necessary at the upper levels of SA rugby. it's an open secret among serious rugby players.

There may well be a reason why Pierre Spies is such a freak of nature - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNSwMFC53FI

Give that workout a try - I promise it is agony.

 

[coinneach]

I think if you are going to make a statement like that in this context you need to quantify it: how many seasons did it take them to develop the squad into one capable of beating the best in the world? Also can you define 'domination'? They won the final with a last minute drop goal.

That England squad in 2003 was veteran, a very-well organised team that had been playing together for years and showed clear progression right up untilt the moment they won it. Or is it only Southern Hemisphere teams that are allowed to do so? 4 years later an unfancied England got to the final again and missed out narrowly to SA. I take it they were on PEDs too? Presumably the squad we sent to NZ had left theirs at home because they were abysmal.

Just to point out, England has the largest rugby union playing population in the world. If anything we consistently under-perform against countries who pick from far-smaller pools of talent. Presumably why they go and nick them from the Pacific Islands

Well, if they are at it (and HGH have been spoken about for a long time), they must have started early....I remember seeing Scotland v England under 19s.... 14 or 15 years ago: the English guys were 3-6 inches taller & broader right through the team (apart from #9). You don't need me to tell you who won with those statistics

 

[JimmyFingers]

England have Manu Tuilagi and Maki Vunipola in their current squad. Born in Samoa and Tonga respectively. Move to England as rugby players to become pro rugby players for English clubs. And number 8 Thomas Waldron was born in NZ and spent all his life there until he realised he wasn't good enough to play for NZ but had an English grandmother. That's 3 nicked from Pacific Islands for you somewhat closer to home.

I believe virtually all the Polynesians who have played for NZ / Aus were either born in NZ or moved there as children, before they even began playing rugby. It also works both ways - a lot of guys who play for Tonga, Samoa or Fiji were born and grew up in NZ.

The reason why there are so many great NZ based rugby players of Polynesian origin is more the coupling of islanders having incredibly suitable physiques for rugby, coupled with being coached as youths in NZ.

If any countries are f&*king over the Pacific islanders right now it's England and France whose clubs won't release Fijian, Tongan and Samoan players for international duty, meaning they have to put out their second XV against top international opposition.

Haha, defensive much? Sure you're right, it was just a little dig

 

[del1962]

Well, if they are at it (and HGH have been spoken about for a long time), they must have started early....I remember seeing Scotland v England under 19s.... 14 or 15 years ago: the English guys were 3-6 inches taller & broader right through the team (apart from #9). You don't need me to tell you who won with those statistics

The difference in size is probably more to do with Scotlands diet and the low numbers in Scotland (mainly Border Farmers and the odd upper class Midlothian) compared to the numbers who play RU in England

 

[JimmyFingers]

This thread shows the danger of idle speculation. It's along the lines of he's big, must be on drugs, he's fast, must be on drugs, they won, must be on drugs. While I think rugby is a good candidate for PEDs, particularly ones for bulking up, there's a danger in re-examining results and accusing a team of winning using nefarious means. If England '03 were using, then I am sure they weren't doing it in some sort of glorious isolation and steamrollering the poor,l drug-free Kiwis and Aussies.

We need to know more about PED culture in rugby, testing etc before lazy accusations start flying. I particularly don't want to hear England/France/Ireland etc must be doping because they managed to beat the ABs/Roos/Boks as if it can never be achieved without PEDs

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This thread shows the danger of idle speculation. It's along the lines of he's big, must be on drugs, he's fast, must be on drugs, they won, must be on drugs. While I think rugby is a good candidate for PEDs, particularly ones for bulking up, there's a danger in re-examining results and accusing a team of winning using nefarious means. If England '03 were using, then I am sure they weren't doing it in some sort of glorious isolation and steamrollering the poor,l drug-free Kiwis and Aussies.

We need to know more about PED culture in rugby, testing etc before lazy accusations start flying. I particularly don't want to hear England/France/Ireland etc must be doping because they managed to beat the ABs/Roos/Boks as if it can never be achieved without PEDs

Hi Jimmy,
Your post shows it is rather silly to attempt to dismiss something as idle speculation when you can take two minutes to look at the UKAD website and it confirms that Rugby (League & Union) has the highest number of incidents.

Nothing to do with Sky, Wiggins or marginal gains - but trying to dismiss something as idle speculation with your idle speculation is rather silly.

 

[JimmyFingers]

This thread shows the danger of idle speculation. It's along the lines of he's big, must be on drugs, he's fast, must be on drugs, they won, must be on drugs. While I think rugby is a good candidate for PEDs, particularly ones for bulking up, there's a danger in re-examining results and accusing a team of winning using nefarious means. If England '03 were using, then I am sure they weren't doing it in some sort of glorious isolation and steamrollering the poor,l drug-free Kiwis and Aussies.

We need to know more about PED culture in rugby, testing etc before lazy accusations start flying. I particularly don't want to hear England/France/Ireland etc must be doping because they managed to beat the ABs/Roos/Boks as if it can never be achieved without PEDs

Apparently I have to write something here for it to post

 

[JimmyFingers]

This thread shows the danger of idle speculation. It's along the lines of he's big, must be on drugs, he's fast, must be on drugs, they won, must be on drugs. While I think rugby is a good candidate for PEDs, particularly ones for bulking up, there's a danger in re-examining results and accusing a team of winning using nefarious means. If England '03 were using, then I am sure they weren't doing it in some sort of glorious isolation and steamrollering the poor,l drug-free Kiwis and Aussies.

We need to know more about PED culture in rugby, testing etc before lazy accusations start flying. I particularly don't want to hear England/France/Ireland etc must be doping because they managed to beat the ABs/Roos/Boks as if it can never be achieved without PEDs

Oh yeah, this bit

 

[noddy69]

In rugby it is generally the use of creatine rather than illegal substances that builds muscle fast on players. It is still legal I believe and used by many.

 

[therealtimshady]

Being an englishman. At least you can't cause our football team of taking PED unless you count fat Rooney being doped up with burgers

 

[King Of The Wolds]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/19/rfu-bradley-wiggins-british-cycling

As part of their bid to win the next rugby world cup on home soil the England RFU have hired Brad Wiggins's sports scientist.

English rugby is now going down the 'marginal gains' route

There was some suspicion of doping the last time England made a dedicated bid to win the World Cup. They seemed stronger and fitter than the opposition, and at one stage managed to hold off a furious assault on their tryline by New Zealand with 2 forwards in the sin bin.

The NZ media dubbed them 'white orcs on steroids'

If you look at photos of the faces of players from that team you'll see some interesting changes. I wasn't aware there was an exercise that could broaden one's jawbone and forehead.

Interestingly the coach of England during their dominant era was Clive Woodward - who, as Director of Elite Performance for the British Olympian Association, has just overseen GB's most succesful Olympic medal haul ever on home soil.

The idea that the England coaching and management set up, created a structure of PED use for players that weren't even assets owned by them and with whom they had contact with for a relatively short period of time during the rugby calendar, is completely laughable, even by Clinic standards.

Some questions:-

Did the clubs, who owned the players, know about this?
If not, did each of the players willingly put their contracts at risk and each and every one not tell their employers what was happening?
If so, did the clubs happily go along with this, in the knowledge that the use of their prime assets was being put at risk by another party?
Or are all the clubs at it and, if so, why is Sir Clive under the spotlight particularly here?
If all the clubs are it, why do you assume that none of the other nations were at it (which you seem to refer to by suggesting that England stole a march on the other nations)?

 

[D-Queued]

... compared to the faster paced more mobile Southern (European) game.

Thats clinic talk for EPO

Actually, that is McQuaid speak for where all the problems and all the doping in cycling is located.

Dave.

 

[wilts rover]

Anyone who thinks that the England rugby (or cricket) teams use performance enhancing anything has obviously not seen them play in quite a while - or they need to be demanding their money back because it sure aint working.