Worst TTers to win a tour?

[jordan5000]

Ok so all this "Frandy will never win a tour" talk, which is mostly based on his poor TTing, has got me thinking, who are the worst TTers to win a tour (or GT works too). Immediately Pantani comes to mind, I'd like this to be based on facts not just opinions so things like their times in the TTs compared to the other contenders and compared to the best should be used. I think it's also worth noting that while the Schlecks are poor TTers among the favourite, they were top 20 in this year's time trial so not to poorly.

Stage 20 (42.5km): Main contenders: Cadel Evans (2nd): 55:40
Alberto Contador (3rd): +59 seconds
Samuel Sanchez: (7th): +1:30
Thomas Voeckler: (13th) +2:03
ANDY SCHLECK: (17th) +2:31
FRANK SCHLECK: (20th) +2:34
Note: Times are in relation to that of the top contender's time (Cadel's) which also happens to be the tour winner.

I realize there is a thread like this, but it doesn't really mention the Schlecks, and it doesn't have any historical context which is what I'm trying to create, I'm attempting to get info on the last 5 tours at least, but it would help a lot if anyone had times of the TTs when Pantani won the giro-tour double as well as some other ones because comparing his times to that of Ullrich's would be useful to compare say Schleck and Evans or Schleck and Contador. All data I have provided is from the official 2011 tour de france website.

 

[Panda Claws]

Sastre I guess

 

[roundabout]

When Pantani won the Tour he lost over 4 minutes to Ullrich in the first TT and 2.40 something in the last TT.

I'll go check CN archives now.

Edit: 4.21 and 2.35 respectively

 

[jordan5000]

Interesting, how long were they?

 

[roundabout]

First 58km, second 53km

 

[will10]

Sastre at TdF 2008

Cholet TT, 29km
1 Stefan Schumacher (Ger) Gerolsteiner 35.44 (49.534 km/h)
2 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia 0.18
3 David Millar (GBr) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30
4 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 0.27
5 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 0.33
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 0.34
7 Jens Voigt (Ger) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 0.35
8 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 0.37
9 George Hincapie (USA) Team Columbia 0.41
10 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas 0.47

20 Andy Schleck (Lux) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 1:29

28 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 1.43

Saint Amand TT, 53km
1 Stefan Schumacher (Ger) Gerolsteiner 1.03.50 (49.817 km/h)
2 Fabian Cancellara (Swi) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 0.21
3 Kim Kirchen (Lux) Team Columbia 1.01
4 Christian Vande Velde (USA) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.05
5 David Millar (GBr) Team Garmin-Chipotle p/b H30 1.37
6 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.55
7 Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence - Lotto 2.05
8 Sebastian Lang (Ger) Gerolsteiner 2.19
9 Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner 2.21
10 George Hincapie (USA) Team Columbia 2.28
11 Thomas Lövkvist (Swe) Team Columbia 2.29
12 Carlos Sastre Candil (Spa) Team CSC - Saxo Bank 2.34

 

[roundabout]

So Sastre lost about 3 minutes to Kirchen, 1.45 to Evans, about 1.50 to Menchov,, 2.30 to Vande Velde, was about even with Kohl and better over 2 time trials than Sanchez, Schleck, Valverde.

And he was legitimately one of the worst time trialists to win the Tour. I'd say history is not on Schleck's side to put it mildly.

 

[Zoncolan]

Van Impe? How was his TT?

 

[roundabout]

He could TT pretty well for a little climber.

When he won the Tour he was 18th in the prologue, 16th in the first TT, 4th in the second TT and 5th in the last short TT.

He did lose about 5 minutes to Maertens over those time trials which were 90km in total

 

[Benotti69]

armstrong '94, lost 6 minutes to Indurain

 

[Zoncolan]

He could TT pretty well for a little climber.

Was before I started following, so I didn't know.
How about some of the other climbers? Gaul, Bahamontes?

 

[Havetts]

armstrong '94, lost 6 minutes to Indurain

Well played sir.

 

[roundabout]

Was before I started following, so I didn't know.
How about some of the other climbers? Gaul, Bahamontes?

He was before my time too. I am going off this page

http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf/presentation_tdf.php

Gaul and Bahamontes might be a bit too far in time to make a useful comparison. Gaul did win all 3 time trials in 1958 when he won the Tour.

 

[Zoncolan]

He was before my time too. I am going off this page

http://www.memoire-du-cyclisme.net/eta_tdf/presentation_tdf.php

Gaul and Bahamontes might be a bit too far in time to make a useful comparison. Gaul did win all 3 time trials in 1958 when he won the Tour.

I guess that rules him out then.
I'd probably go for Sastre from the guys I've seen TT.

 

[jordan5000]

If you could post seconds lost per TT km that would be helpful, it'd give an idea of how much these cyclists were aided by having fewer time trials.

 

[Fowsto Cope-E]

When Pantani won the Tour he lost over 4 minutes to Ullrich in the first TT and 2.40 something in the last TT.

I'll go check CN archives now.

Edit: 4.21 and 2.35 respectively

Yes, but in the last TT, 2:35 was good enough for 3rd place. Pantani could TT well at times. I must admit, though, winning the Tour after losing 7 minutes in the TTs over your main opponett is pretty darn impressive.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, but in the last TT, 2:35 was good enough for 3rd place. Pantani could TT well at times. I must admit, though, winning the Tour after losing 7 minutes in the TTs over your main opponett is pretty darn impressive.

Especially with 3:21 between Ullrich and him.

 

[hrotha]

Yes, but in the last TT, 2:35 was good enough for 3rd place. Pantani could TT well at times. I must admit, though, winning the Tour after losing 7 minutes in the TTs over your main opponett is pretty darn impressive.

Those times being 1998 and 1999 when things got silly within Mercatone.

 

[uphillstruggle]

Doping aside the two times where poor TTer's won the tour: 1998 & 2008 the running theme was that the stronger TTer's put in very poor performances along the way. Ullrich cracked completely on the Galibeir and Evans was either tactically poor on Alpe d Huez or not strong enough, compounded by his week final TT.

I would say pure climbers need either a good deal of luck or expectational performances in the mountains to win the tour.

 

[Bavarianrider]

When Pantani won the Tour he lost over 4 minutes to Ullrich in the first TT and 2.40 something in the last TT.

I'll go check CN archives now.

Edit: 4.21 and 2.35 respectively

Pantani actally wasn't bad TTer at all. He had bad days, bu he also had very good ones.
The last TT in the 98tour was a stunning performance by Pantani. O

 

[roundabout]

While Pantani wasn't a bad time trialist he was pretty bad for a GC contender. As hrotha wrote his best flat TT performances were in 1998-1999. Before that he would need a mountain TT or a TT like the one in Saint-Etienne to finish high.

 

[Peccio89]

Pantani was impressive in the final TT of 1998 giro(34 km) :
1. Gontchar (Ucr, Cantina Tollo - Alexia) 39'54" (media 51,128 km / h);
2. Podenzana a 29";
3. Pantani a 30";
4. Velo a 31";
5. Tonkov (Rus) a 35";
6. Serpellini a 1'01";
7. Camenzind (Svi) a 1'14";
8. Savoldelli a 1'15";
9. Zuelle (Svi) a 1'32";
10. Moller (Dan) a 1'40";

But it was at the end of the event, when his opponents were all tired. While in first week time trial and prologue he usually sucked: in the prologue of 1998 Tour he was 181th losing 48 second from the winner Boardman in 5.6 km.

So i think that he might be the worst pure time trialer to ever winning a tour, because in final TT usually other factor such as how tired you are can be be even more important than TT skills.

 

[hrotha]

Ah yes, the final TT of the 1998 Giro, where Podenzana was 2nd, Pantani 3rd, Velo 4th and Forconi wasn't allowed to start due to his high hematocrit. Oh you, Mercatone.

 

[jens_attacks]

marco was very good in the itts in the last week of the grand tours of course because the recovery means a lot after that period of time.and he had an amazing recovery from his junior years.his father explained how quick his bpm was going at 35 after a 6 hour training ride.
he was pretty much like heras in the itt.

 

[jens_attacks]

So i think that he might be the worst pure time trialer to ever winning a tour, because in final TT usually other factor such as how tired you are can be be even more important than TT skills.

exactly...

also in the last 98 tour itt, remember there were just 80 riders left,dozens strong guys left the race