Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Ironically starting to dislike it more.

With dudes like Froome, it's like at least people knew it was joke, or they'd sooner or later admit it. Or they'd just go to "clentadopucci" ***.

Now there's not even asking questions anyore. Everything is happy, doping happened 20 years ago, all the while the most ridiculous *** is happening in front of our eyes every fuckign day.

I miss the Froome days. Instead of 3km of action for the win in the Froome days, we now get 5 seconds of Pogacar riding away seated with a smile on his face with a 50% chance of the TV directors missing it as well. Race over. Everyone knows it. And people only get excited because they bought into the cult of Pogacar. Or the cult of Vingegaard. Or the cult of MvdP

"He's so nice".

I'd also be nice if I was the biggest doper out there, everyone worshipped me, and I had assurance i wasn't getting busted any time soon.

My biggest problem with Armstrong was the way he tried to destroy people who were just telling what they honesely saw...and his fans were obnoxious and blind. At the same time, I always disliked riders like Voigt because he got to dope. and cover it with saying "Shut up legs," and everyone was just okay with it. Then, Skybots took the mantle. Pog, VIngegaard, and MvdP fans are generally less rabid than those camps, but yes, the racing was a bit better in times of doping past. Pog completely lost me with his Strade win...what he did was impossible by an uninhanced human being. I find myself more and more gravitating to races like Cape Epic and some of the major gravel events...sure, I'm no pollyannaish enough to believe those races are free from doping, but they are more competitive races. And riders like Beers and Swensen seem more plausibly clean.

It's also hard, because I do like Wout, but again, I am not foolish enough to believe that a lot of the things we have seen out if him were not more than the product of just training at altitude. The thing I see in him is the bucking of the current trend of everyone being best friends. Pidcock in there as well, as I think his comments after Strade would have gotten him a ban on this forum for Clinic talk, outside of the Clinic. (side note, not really about this: Strange seeing Iserbyt on the route yesterday, cheering on Wout)

Anyway...I guess my hypocracy is that I still do (and will) get up really early here in CA, to watch any race. I pay Flo, Max, Peacock, and was paying GCN to watch it all...so I am an active part of the problem, as the UCI has an interest in promoting a "clean" sport, so people like me will keep paying for sh!t associated with professional road cycling.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I was just about to post something along these lines, but you beat me to it. It's true, I don't hear the journos asking Tadej the hard and uncomfortable questions about his performances that was the standard praxis going back to the Festina affair. To me this indicates they don't want to rock the boat, because with a Gianetti in the organization they can't possibly have been duped. But how long can Pog keep performing like this before someone starts questioning the legitimacy of it all.

If he does go to the Tour this year, and wins...they need to closely examine his DNA...because he looks to be setting up for that. Of course, he can always point to Kuss and say "If a domestique can ride all 3 GT's, and still win the last one, then why can't I win two?" I actually do think he will beat Vingegaard this year...and there will be delight in the masses, because the Evil Empire will have had their Death Star blown up...

 

[Red Rick]

I was just about to post something along these lines, but you beat me to it. It's true, I don't hear the journos asking Tadej the hard and uncomfortable questions about his performances that was the standard praxis going back to the Festina affair. To me this indicates they don't want to rock the boat, because with a Gianetti in the organization they can't possibly have been duped. But how long can Pog keep performing like this before someone starts questioning the legitimacy of it all.

Exactly.

I accepted doping as part of the sport a long time ago. But now it absolutely feels like the field isn't level at all, and it starts to make you think it's more than just everyone for themselves wild west doping going on.

It feels like even in doping it's completely unfair.

 

[Extinction]

My biggest problem with Armstrong was the way he tried to destroy people who were just telling what they honesely saw...and his fans were obnoxious and blind. At the same time, I always disliked riders like Voigt because he got to dope. and cover it with saying "Shut up legs," and everyone was just okay with it. Then, Skybots took the mantle. Pog, VIngegaard, and MvdP fans are generally less rabid than those camps, but yes, the racing was a bit better in times of doping past. Pog completely lost me with his Strade win...what he did was impossible by an uninhanced human being. I find myself more and more gravitating to races like Cape Epic and some of the major gravel events...sure, I'm no pollyannaish enough to believe those races are free from doping, but they are more competitive races. And riders like Beers and Swensen seem more plausibly clean.

It's also hard, because I do like Wout, but again, I am not foolish enough to believe that a lot of the things we have seen out if him were more than the product of just training at altitude. The thing I see in him is the bucking of the current trend of everyone being best friends. Pidcock in there as well, as I think his comments after Strade would have gotten him a ban on this forum for Clinic talk, outside of the Clinic. (side note, not really about this: Strange seeing Iserbyt on the route yesterday, cheering on Wout)

Anyway...I guess my hypocracy is that I still do (and will) get up really early here in CA, to watch any race. I pay Flo, Max, Peacock, and was paying GCN to watch it all...so I am an active part of the problem, as the UCI has an interest in promoting a "clean" sport, so people like me will keep paying for sh!t associated with professional road cycling.

Well, we can still find following the races entertaining, because we love cycling, but also think the spectacle is not free of illegal enhancement. Unfortunately, if you had to know it was all clean and within the rules to continue watching, you'd only deprive yourself of a real pleasure. One needs to be a bit cynical to follow cycling, but I draw the line at mechanical doping. If cycling becomes a motor sport, I won't tune in for the charade. Hopefully Pogacar has nothing to do with that, but with certain performances I do wonder.

 

[Extinction]

Exactly.

I accepted doping as part of the sport a long time ago. But now it absolutely feels like the field isn't level at all, and it starts to make you think it's more than just everyone for themselves wild west doping going on.

It feels like even in doping it's completely unfair.

It could be that something new is going on to which currently few have access or there are some super-responders to the latest gen blood enhancers.

 

[Cookster15]

Well, we can still find following the races entertaining, because we love cycling, but also think the spectacle is not free of illegal enhancement. Unfortunately, if you had to know it was all clean and within the rules to continue watching, you'd only deprive yourself of a real pleasure. One needs to be a bit cynical to follow cycling, but I draw the line at mechanical doping. If cycling becomes a motor sport, I won't tune in for the charade. Hopefully Pogacar has nothing to do with that, but with certain performances I do wonder.

I draw the line at fair competition - doping or not (mechanical doping would destroy the sport). Even if doping was fully legal it wouldn't be fair. It would be an arms race led by teams with the best doctors and money to find and attract the best responders. But I still say it was too much coincidence at Vingegaard's rise coinciding with the 2020 Tdf result and Roglic's injury.

 

[Extinction]

I draw the line at fair competition - doping or not (mechanical doping would destroy the sport). Even if doping was fully legal it wouldn't be fair. It would be an arms race led by teams with the best doctors and money to find and attract the best responders. But I still say it was too much coincidence at Vingegaard's rise coinciding with the 2020 Tdf result and Roglic's injury.

To the bolded, it has been and still is that way as far as I can tell. Pog and Vingo seem to fit the bill precisely.

 

[Oldermanish]

Although it's hard to imagine that better equipment and training plans alone mostly account for the higher level of performance compared to a past that was rife with doping in the peloton. If the pack were let's say relatively clean, then I believe you'd expect to see clean riders with better equipment and training regimes to coming nearer to the doped blood-vector enhanced performances of 20-25 years ago, not outperform them. In the specific case of Tadej, I can never forget that he has the same Mauro around him as Riccardo Ricco and Leonardo Piepoli. He's clearly very talented, but what he's doing is extraterrestrial and that in this sport is simply too much to put one's faith in.

That's why I said it could account for "uplift of much performance..." That said he got beat at MSR and the gaps he's putting on Catalunya fields wouldn't be as likely with another ET player to screw with tactics. Like Jonas he's the main player in the race. The gap to Landa and Bernal isn't so ridiculous, is it?

 

[Oldermanish]

Ironically starting to dislike it more.

With dudes like Froome, it's like at least people knew it was joke, or they'd sooner or later admit it. Or they'd just go to "clentadopucci" ***.

Now there's not even asking questions anyore. Everything is happy, doping happened 20 years ago, all the while the most ridiculous *** is happening in front of our eyes every fuckign day.

I miss the Froome days. Instead of 3km of action for the win in the Froome days, we now get 5 seconds of Pogacar riding away seated with a smile on his face with a 50% chance of the TV directors missing it as well. Race over. Everyone knows it. And people only get excited because they bought into the cult of Pogacar. Or the cult of Vingegaard. Or the cult of MvdP

"He's so nice".

I'd also be nice if I was the biggest doper out there, everyone worshipped me, and I had assurance i wasn't getting busted any time soon.

I wouldn't say no one's asking questions, anymore. Maybe the UCI isn't but they're historical complicity shouldn't shock anyone. It's not apparently definable what, if any edge the "nice" guys have and whether they all do or it's going to fade. Hell, Cancellara was accused of motor doping as the explanation of his classics dominance.
On the broadcast today (Peacock) the commentator mentioned that 65% of the bikes were checked without incident. I almost spit my coffee out at that comment.

 

[Extinction]

That's why I said it could account for "uplift of much performance..." That said he got beat at MSR and the gaps he'd putting on Catalunya fields wouldn't be as likely with another ET player to screw with tactics. Like Jonas he's the main player in the race. The gap to Landa and Bernal isn't so ridiculous, is it?

I think so. There has not been a winner of Catalunya for the past 50 years that's been ahead by over 1:30 or so to second place. That he likely wouldn't have such a lead were Vingegaard in the race, merely, as I see it, speaks of their common ET status, but the extra-terrestrial status itself is highly problematical in this sport. MSR is always going to be the hardest monument for him to win, because it's not hard enough to easily break the others, so not winning it seems in line with expectations.

 

[Ulle97]

Is there any speculation that Pogacar or Vingegaard are using motors?

Maybe I'm being extreme but this new norm of pulverising everyone from 50km out is very suspicious. When you hear a world class cyclist like Tom Pidcock saying in Strade that there were bodies just dying with 80km to go, then Pogacar casually blows everyone out of the water.
Maybe motors are in use????

 

[zlev11]

Is there any speculation that Pogacar or Vingegaard are using motors?

Maybe I'm being extreme but this new norm of pulverising everyone from 50km out is very suspicious. When you hear a world class cyclist like Tom Pidcock saying in Strade that there were bodies just dying with 80km to go, then Pogacar casually blows everyone out of the water.
Maybe motors are in use????

there was smoke around Pogacar during the 2021 Tour where other (anonymous) riders said his bike was making weird sounds. it wouldn't shock me if Visma decided to not be cheated the next year and came back with a motor as well.

i will say though, i couldn't see them being this brash and attracting attention like this if they had a motor. there's no reason to motor dope to win Catalunya by 4 minutes (or Galicia for Vinegegaard). i would think they would want to lay low and then unleash it at the Tour.

 

[Froome]

@Cookster15 As others already mentioned 2020 was the breakthrough year. The Tour was super fast on climbs and included a proper thermonuclear performance at the end by none other than young, tender Teddy.

Not just in the end. Peyresourde was also a superb performance, it's not so popular like the last ITT, but it was probably one of the best 25 min ever by Pogacar in Grand tours.

 

[hfer07]

Catalunya is a Pogacar's freak show If the entire race was all MTF, he would have won all stages without breaking a sweat - He's not even using his teammates at all

 

[Ripper]

Catalunya is a Pogacar's freak show If the entire race was all MTF, he would have won all stages without breaking a sweat - He's not even using his teammates at all

It's pretty funny stuff.

I actually had a similar thought earlier today, and combined it with the recent comment about wanting to win all the major 1 week stage races. Something like this ...

Toddy will complete the (insert whatever year) season as a solo supported rider. Meaning he will have a team car, bikes, etc., but no teammates. And his goal is to win all 3 GTs and every monument, as well as the WC.

 

[Oldermanish]

there was smoke around Pogacar during the 2021 Tour where other (anonymous) riders said his bike was making weird sounds. it wouldn't shock me if Visma decided to not be cheated the next year and came back with a motor as well.

i will say though, i couldn't see them being this brash and attracting attention like this if they had a motor. there's no reason to motor dope to win Catalunya by 4 minutes (or Galicia for Vinegegaard). i would think they would want to lay low and then unleash it at the Tour.

This is silly like the discussions several years ago. Specialized is sponsoring two of the major contenders; do you think they'd take that kind of risk? It'd ruin their brand if all success was attributed to Granpa's e-bike technology. Better to have a busted, doped rider win on their product and drop the rider.
No; they are somewhere between better than other riders/teams and the Outer Limits. Motor doping isn't likely.
"there was smoke around Pogacar during the 2021 Tour where other (anonymous) riders said his bike was making weird sounds." is hack-writer click-bait. The weird sound would be someone like Remco or Tadej made accelerating in 3 cogs higher than the riders being dropped.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Not just in the end. Peyresourde was also a superb performance, it's not so popular like the last ITT, but it was probably one of the best 25 min ever by Pogacar in Grand tours.

Yup but last 25 minutes of Puy de Dome was probably better. Pog gained almost a minute in like 1.5 km on all guys except Vingo, who himself was pushing super strong but couldn't catch Pog. ET acceleration and VAM (over 2000 in the last 15 min).

 

[Froome]

Yup but last 25 minutes of Puy de Dome was probably better. Pog gained almost a minute in like 1.5 km on all guys except Vingo, who himself was pushing super strong but couldn't catch Pog. ET acceleration and VAM (over 2000 in the last 15 min).

I think on puy de dome, pogacar attacked in the last 1.5 km. It was probably during 5 minutes the VAM 2000.

Puy de dome had a flat section of 3 km in the middle of the climb. The steepest section was the last 4 km.

 

[Red Rick]

I think on puy de dome, pogacar attacked in the last 1.5 km. It was probably during 5 minutes the VAM 2000.

Puy de dome had a flat section of 3 km in the middle of the climb. The steepest section was the last 4 km.

2000 for 15 minutes below 1500m altitude at steep gradient isn't actually crazy. The 6.5 for 35 minutes number is by the LR guys who overestimate everything. There was a headwind on a large part of the climb, which probably is the reason for the estimate.

 

[Froome]

2000 for 15 minutes below 1500m altitude at steep gradient isn't actually crazy. The 6.5 for 35 minutes number is by the LR guys who overestimate everything. There was a headwind on a large part of the climb, which probably is the reason for the estimate.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1678115559970357248

View: https://twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1678115559970357248


@Krzysztof_O was right in the last 15 min.

It doesn't make sense the calculations for the 35 min, because there are a flat section of about 3 km in the middle.

 

[Blobs]

This and actual professional training plans can account for the uplift of much performance. The younger riders are much better trained than in the past, too.
The 90's introduced a pharma aid that everyone knew about that was poorly responded to by the UCI....and many other controlling bodies. There may be something in the peloton that is less than legal and retroactive testing may get it but this widespread parity hasn't revealed anything other than better work ethic so far.

But those things were also improving in the 2010's but without any signifiant improvement in the average level of the peloton.

The current situation reminds me of 2008 with CERA, except this time people aren't getting caught. Gianetti played a part in that as well.

Look at Padun a couple of years back. He clearly showed there is something you can currently do, that will turn you into an absolute alien without getting caught. He didn't just eat well and ride on really good equipment for a few weeks.

 

[Oldermanish]

But those things were also improving in the 2010's but without any signifiant improvement in the average level of the peloton.

The current situation reminds me of 2008 with CERA, except this time people aren't getting caught. Gianetti played a part in that as well.

Look at Padun a couple of years back. He clearly showed there is something you can currently do, that will turn you into an absolute alien without getting caught. He didn't just eat well and ride on really good equipment for a few weeks.

You get no argument from me on all of these counts. I can say bike and wheel technology has upped the speed a bit from my experience but actual power may not from those better aerodynamics.

 

[GuntherL1]

Are you not entertained?

 

[acm]

No.

 

[ivanic]

where are the journalists? where's Walsh?
the only one is Antoine Vayer, all influencer on X are hypocrites, never anyone who talks about doping, mihai, LR, B.N. , ammatty
where did that guy called @Uefe go??

Pogacar is the biggest scandal since Armstrong and no one talks