Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[proffate]

But if you look at the same era for LBL you got guys like Gerrans, Iglinski, Jungels and Poels. I'd reckon that maybe even more under par than Lombardia.

I don't remember any rider ever stating in January that their main target of the year was lombardia. It's more of a "I'll show up with whatever fitness I've got" or "I missed my main target due to injury" type of deal.

And to go beyond the Lombardia debate, all of the climbing monuments/one days are less important to the best climbers than the flatter/cobbled classics are to the best Flandriens. Because Liege etc compete with GTs for the attention of climbers. For example Vingegaard doesn't bother with Liege although I have no doubt he would do pretty well. That diminishes Liege somewhat. This is also why you see the GT also-rans like Pinot, Mollema winning Lombardia. Liege at least has the draw that it's near the other Ardennes races so more climbers target that part of the calendar for a peak.

(That said, unfortunately this year a lot of the best Flandriens were injured so we didn't get any epic battle. Ish happens.)

 

[Barkintheeye]

I don't remember any rider ever stating in January that their main target of the year was lombardia. It's more of a "I'll show up with whatever fitness I've got" or "I missed my main target due to injury" type of deal.

And to go beyond the Lombardia debate, all of the climbing monuments/one days are less important to the best climbers than the flatter/cobbled classics are to the best Flandriens. Because Liege etc compete with GTs for the attention of climbers. For example Vingegaard doesn't bother with Liege although I have no doubt he would do pretty well. That diminishes Liege somewhat. This is also why you see the GT also-rans like Pinot, Mollema winning Lombardia. Liege at least has the draw that it's near the other Ardennes races so more climbers target that part of the calendar for a peak.

(That said, unfortunately this year a lot of the best Flandriens were injured so we didn't get any epic battle. Ish happens.)

Several good points there! When Pog starts crushing competition at Paris-Roubaix I’ll cave in and call him GOAT

 

[SHAD0W93]

If there was a cycling hall of fame, only Nibali would be a no-brainer

And Purito, maybe not first ballot but he’d get in.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

The beauty of monuments is that you can get an unexpected winner who used their brain rather than strength, or the favourites can lose with bad tactics. Cycling is a sport, no a fitness test.

However at the same time these races are 250km+ and hard, so everybody good enough to compete for the win in the final has to be exceptionally strong before tactics come into play.

I don't think a colourful list of previous winners loses a race prestige. Coilek beat cancellara and sagan , Gerrans did the same and mugged valverde/Dan martin in Liege. Hayman out sprinted Boonen. These guys didn't decrease the prestige of races, they improved massively their own legacy.

 

[Red Rick]

But if you look at the same era for LBL you got guys like Gerrans, Iglinski, Jungels and Poels. I'd reckon that maybe even more under par than Lombardia.

If you look purely by riders palmares I'm pretty sure Lombardia has among the fewest fluke winners.

The difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg, or the difference between a guy like Dylan van Baarle and Simon Gerrans IMO just shows the insane bias that cycling fans have for the cobbled classics over Liege and Lombardia. If a guy flukes a cobbled monument he was post hoc always a worthy classics winner. Fluke Liege or Lombardia and you're still just a fluke. Hell even if you win Sanremo you can be considered a bad Liege winner apparently.

 

[proffate]

difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg

What difference in discourse? I don't see any one poster stating Hayman is worthy and Zaugg is not.

Also to me personally, cult winners like Nibali and Gerrans are legends and can't be considered flukes like Ciolek can. But even a fluke is memorable and the fact that MVDP has to contend with two dozen riders trying to be a fluke, in addition to other favorites, just adds to the mystique of road racing. Ball sports players don't have so many opponents to keep an eye on.

Lombardia stands out as being the monument where the winner is almost never the best rider for that sort of terrain in that cycling season, at least pre-pog era.

 

[Red Rick]

What difference in discourse? I don't see any one poster stating Hayman is worthy and Zaugg is not.

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

 

[staubsauger]

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

Y'all forgot Vladislav Bobrik!

 

[Netserk]

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

One of the races was the greatest edition of it, the other closer to the worst.

 

[Salvarani]

Gerald Ciolek denying Sagan!!

 

[Red Rick]

One of the races was the greatest edition of it, the other closer to the worst.

2011 wasn't that bad. Nibali sacrificing his chance in a murder-suicide on Gilbert only to finish like 80th. Plus most of the pre 2015 editions were just nothing before a 1 climb shootout as far as I remember, apart from the 2010 rain edition.

 

[Valv.Piti]

If you look purely by riders palmares I'm pretty sure Lombardia has among the fewest fluke winners.

The difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg, or the difference between a guy like Dylan van Baarle and Simon Gerrans IMO just shows the insane bias that cycling fans have for the cobbled classics over Liege and Lombardia. If a guy flukes a cobbled monument he was post hoc always a worthy classics winner. Fluke Liege or Lombardia and you're still just a fluke. Hell even if you win Sanremo you can be considered a bad Liege winner apparently.

People disliked Gerrans for good reasons as he consistently did nothing to make racing better, actually quite the contrary. Zaugg was just very meh. I don't even remember the race and don't bother to look it up, whereas I watched Roubaix from km 0 as I try to do every year and it was a great, great race and beat the GOAT Roubaix-rider. That race everybody remembers, and even though you didn't feel great about the winner (I know I didn't), you still pay your respect for Hayman's ride on that particular day.

 

[Red Rick]

People disliked Gerrans for good reasons as he consistently did nothing to make racing better, actually quite the contrary. Zaugg was just very meh. I don't even remember the race and don't bother to look it up, whereas I watched Roubaix from km 0 as I try to do every year and it was a great, great race and beat the GOAT Roubaix-rider. That race everybody remembers, and even though you didn't feel great about the winner (I know I didn't), you still pay your respect for Hayman's ride on that particular day.

I know why people hated Gerrans. I did too. But many people can't seperate that from their opinion on a riders quality. Gerrans was *** good in 2014.

 

[velaso montador]

he should not race amstel to try all inn Liege since hes won both monument and just gamble on Liege even tho less likely?

Or go for Amstel dig deep and also try Liege since hes no favourite either way? Curious about the belief there but Flandern, Robauix Amster to Liege its hard to believe he will have not dipped expecially since he had to gone deep with those performances. already. If Pogacar didnt ride Liege i do believe that maby the outcome of his priorities would swap here, ofcouse have no clue just speculating.

 

[Red Rick]

he should not race amstel to try all inn Liege since hes won both monument and just gamble on Liege even tho less likely?

Or go for Amstel dig deep and also try Liege since hes no favourite either way? Curious about the belief there but Flandern, Robauix Amster to Liege its hard to believe he will have not dipped expecially since he had to gone deep with those performances. already. If Pogacar didnt ride Liege i do believe that maby the outcome of his priorities would swap here, ofcouse have no clue just speculating.

He got his main objective so he rather take a 95% shot at winning Amstel than skipping Amstel to go from 4% in Liege to 5% or whatever.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I know why people hated Gerrans. I did too. But many people can't seperate that from their opinion on a riders quality. Gerrans was *** good in 2014.

Sure he was very good in his prime, but he made Valverde look like Vinokourov lets be honest now. Its very hard to get praised when you race that negatively IMO as people will naturally focus on the *** race it was and you playing to your very boring strengths of just sitting there, doing nothing, and then sticking your nose in the wind for the first time after the last 250 m bend in Ans

 

[Red Rick]

Sure he was very good in his prime, but he made Valverde look like Vinokourov lets be honest now. Its very hard to get praised when you race that negatively IMO as people will naturally focus on the *** race it was and you playing to your very boring strengths of just sitting there, doing nothing, and then sticking your nose in the wind for the first time after the last 250 m bend in Ans

I liked Gerrans.

By which I mean I liked hating him.

He unified the forum like a reverse Jesus figure

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Gerald Ciolek denying Sagan!!

And cancellara!

 

[Blanco]

Lombardia stands out as being the monument where the winner is almost never the best rider for that sort of terrain in that cycling season, at least pre-pog era.

And who was the best rider for that sort of terrain before Pogacar?
Not Nibali?
Not Valverde? (I know, he didn't won, but he came 2nd three times)
Not Purito?
Not Gilbert?
Not Bettini?

 

[Sciatic]

I was mostly looking at the past 20 years, and if you then look at the opposition, as well as how those riders did the rest of the season you know that the field just isn't as impressive as is the case for De Ronde, Roubaix and Liege.urse

I don’t see how you can compare Lombardia’s status to RvV and P-R for the period you’re talking about because Cancellara and Boonen dominated the cobbled monuments but didn’t even Ride (or rarely, not sure) Lombardia. So of course they don’t grace the list of winners there.

I personally agree that RvV and P-R have more cachet in pro cycling than Lombardia does. But an illogical argument doesn’t support that view.

 

[Berniece]

I don’t see how you can compare Lombardia’s status to RvV and P-R for the period you’re talking about because Cancellara and Boonen dominated the cobbled monuments but didn’t even Ride (or rarely, not sure) Lombardia. So of course they don’t grace the list of winners there.

I personally agree that RvV and P-R have more cachet in pro cycling than Lombardia does. But an illogical argument doesn’t support that view.

Point was that the best in cobbles were there for De Rond and Roubaix, while this wasn’t the case for Lombardia.

Like someone else also said, Lombardia is at the end of the season, it’s the worst location. It’s just for people after Vuelta and World Championship who still want to. Valverde never winning it tells you he was never there in his best form, no one really is.

 

[Sciatic]

Point was that the best in cobbles were there for De Rond and Roubaix, while this wasn’t the case for Lombardia.

Like someone else also said, Lombardia is at the end of the season, it’s the worst location. It’s just for people after Vuelta and World Championship who still want to. Valverde never winning it tells you he was never there in his best form, no one really is.

Got it, I see what you’re saying.

 

[Red Rick]

Point was that the best in cobbles were there for De Rond and Roubaix, while this wasn’t the case for Lombardia.

Like someone else also said, Lombardia is at the end of the season, it’s the worst location. It’s just for people after Vuelta and World Championship who still want to. Valverde never winning it tells you he was never there in his best form, no one really is.

"Nobody is in great form in Lombardia" does contrast with riders focusing their entire fall season on that race. Besides, quite a few Ronde contenders skip Roubaix.

The whole thing revolves around cobbled riders being this self fullfilling prophecy while Lombardia riders must be great elsewhere to be good for Lombardia.

 

[gregrowlerson]

I liked Gerrans.

By which I mean I liked hating him.

He unified the forum like a reverse Jesus figure

Whilst having totally different racing tactics to Contador, Gerrans probably had very similar philosophy.

"The second place is no good."

Hence he always raced as if he cared less about a podium then his group 1 riding companions, calling their bluff; "I don't care if those 5/10/20/50 riders in group 2 catch us, but I know that you, so keep working, thanks."

Gerrans was not as good as Matthews imo, but he has a better palmares.

 

[Berniece]

"Nobody is in great form in Lombardia" does contrast with riders focusing their entire fall season on that race. Besides, quite a few Ronde contenders skip Roubaix.

The whole thing revolves around cobbled riders being this self fullfilling prophecy while Lombardia riders must be great elsewhere to be good for Lombardia.

Most riders focus the fall on Vuelta and WC.