Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2024 Stage 2: San Francesco al Campo – Santuario di Oropa (Biella), 161.0 km

[Ripper]

I'm sure you can enlighten me given you seem to have a handle on the truth ...maybe you can also tell me about Pantani, Bala, Contador and other Spanish and Italian cyclists who are adored on this forum but actually produced more pink fairy dust than Geraint Thomas ever has

Well the two that are alive have their own threads in the clinic. And Pantani has had an enormous amount written about him as well. Seriously

 

[46&twoWheels]

I'm sure you can enlighten me given you seem to have a handle on the truth ...maybe you can also tell me about Pantani, Bala, Contador and other Spanish and Italian cyclists who are adored on this forum but actually produced more pink fairy dust than Geraint Thomas ever has

cycling didn't become a Teletubbies episode when english riders started to become relevant all of a sudden after being irrelevant for 1 century.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

How are you gauging unpopular, I mean I'd say he wasn't unpopular across cycling fans, the peloton or other teams so it's nothing to do with how he races. As we saw today, he races with intelligence, he has to ride with what he has, not with what is entertaining for Libertine but loses him more time.

How am I gauging unpopular? I was answering a question from somebody asking why he was. Ask them how they gauge it. I suspect they meant on this particular forum.

 

[Mayomaniac]

unfortunately performances like this make the Giro unwatchable on German TV. For the final couple of km, Bengsch didn't stop shouting that Lipowitz shouldn't work for Martinez, who has no chance anyway.

And now he'll talk about it for the remainder of the week. He still claims on a daily base that Kanter would have won in Abbruzzo if Lutsenko had not ruined his chances by going on the attack.

I mean, German cycling commentators and their nationalism give Beppe "Landa should have waited for Aru on the Mortirolo" Conti a run for his money...

 

[search]

Karsten Migels commentary wasn't that nationalistic back in the zeros and 10s. Especially when he was constantly paired with Leclercq they used to commentate for the true cycling passionists mainly. Sadly, that changed after 2019. Nowadays it becomes unbearable sometimes.

Normally I like Bengsch, because he's very analytical and has a good insight into tactics. Today's criticism was a clear auxesis however!

yeah, normally I like Bengsch too, the insides he gets from the riders are also a great addition, while Migels and JCL got a bit lazy over the last decades. When he started, JCL's always translated all the cycling news from the French papers, for example, but nowadays they often feel fairly unprepared.

But when it comes to riders he knows/likes personally, Bengsch tends to lose the plot completely. During the classics he also kept on stating that Trentin should work for Mayrhofer and stuff like that.

 

[samhocking]

How am I gauging unpopular? I was answering a question from somebody asking why he was. Ask them how they gauge it. I suspect they meant on this particular forum.

So basically no gauge used, just someone's opinion here but you generally seem to agree with them? Or are you saying Thomas is popular? It just seems if you're hoping Thomas would race in a supercharged Contador or Pantani style it would be the dumbest strategy for Ineos to use with Thomas. It would be the dumbest thing even for UAE to employ, we saw how Sky's tactics relatively easily overcame a Contador or Pantani approach to winning GTs and you can't possibly expect teams today to race in ways that would only ensure less success.
The focus on how Ineos race just seems a waste of energy to be looking at bike racing like that, the Festina days are over, racing isn't like that anymore. We saw today, it was one UAE train, one gentle attack - boom! race won, Contador would have attacked 136 times, got caught several times and then probably eventually been beaten by Froome anyway lol!

 

[QueenStagiaire]

yeah, normally I like Bengsch too, the insides he gets from the riders are also a great addition, while Migels and JCL got a bit lazy over the last decades. When he started, JCL's always translated all the cycling news from the French papers, for example, but nowadays they often feel fairly unprepared.

But when it comes to riders he knows/likes personally, Bengsch tends to lose the plot completely. During the classics he also kept on stating that Trentin should work for Mayrhofer and stuff like that.

Bengsch was also really optimistic for the break‘s chances today even though that was a bit out there with what Pogačar was saying. His insights are nice, but among the German commentators it‘s mostly about saying the least weird nonsense to be considered good.

 

[Escarabajo]

I just read on RCN Television that they asked Martinez about why he dropped and the came back, then He said that he had a gear problem. His gear got stuck on a very low gear and that's why he was calling his team car several times on the radio. Once problem was fixed he came back to the front.

 

[Lequack]

Pretty in pink

 

[Libertine Seguros]

So basically no gauge used, just someone's opinion here but you generally seem to agree with them? Or are you saying Thomas is popular? It just seems if you're hoping Thomas would race in a supercharged Contador or Pantani style it would be the dumbest strategy for Ineos to use with Thomas. It would be the dumbest thing even for UAE to employ, we saw how Sky's tactics relatively easily overcame a Contador or Pantani approach to winning GTs and you can't possibly expect teams today to race in ways that would only ensure less success.
The focus on how Ineos race just seems a waste of energy to be looking at bike racing like that, the Festina days are over, racing isn't like that anymore. We saw today, it was one UAE train, one gentle attack - boom! race won, Contador would have attacked 136 times, got caught several times and then probably eventually been beaten by Froome anyway lol!

Give it a rest, Sam. Somebody asked a question and I answered it, that's all. It's not up to me to set the parameters of popularity when an assumption regarding it is included in the question.

I made no comments regarding the validity or efficacy of the team's tactics.

 

[MartinGT]

I'm sure you can enlighten me given you seem to have a handle on the truth ...maybe you can also tell me about Pantani, Bala, Contador and other Spanish and Italian cyclists who are adored on this forum but actually produced more pink fairy dust than Geraint Thomas ever has

I saw on Twitter someone complaiing about the love for Pantani from the Giro official etc. Saying he was a doper and shouldn't have this love.

This is from someone who has had photos of him with Musseuw when on a recent trip to Roubaix and loving it Similar to his love in for Mercx.

I will love Pantani forever as he was one of my first hero's when I first started watching Pro cycling with my elder brother. I was too young to understand the doping, I just loved watching racing and pretending I was him when riding. When he passed I remember being very upset. I still think about those early days. He was far from a saint, but he should still be alive and with his loved ones.

 

[Bolder]

Also Hatch making out Pog came back after crashing, breaking his beck and snapping his bike in two.

I’m sure it was a little excessive, but the French commentators also kept on about it.

And, it could have been a disaster had he landed on his shoulder. Even I know you can’t turn with a totally flat tire. In the end it probably cost him 30 seconds’ margin, too.

 

[Unchained]

As someone who got into watching cycling at the start of the Armstrong years, this is quite a natural inclination for me. A GT can be great entertainment even with a dominant rider. It's not all about who wins it.

It's great that you are trying to enjoy the entire race instead of an individual rider, any given stage has different layers of awesomeness!!
And Pogacar is an over the top great athlete but by his standards he is certainly not dominant currently, he has for the last few years gone at 40,30,20k out, made the separation and then rode an ITT w his gap,
These 2 stages he has jumped but only a few kilometers from the finish, w a couple of riders keeping his wheel and he lost the sprint. Lipowitz is punching above his weight and he is answering to demands so far, very impressive. Ganna is riding a dual role w long uphill pulls that are not a current trademark of hour record guy and TT champion, he is looking better and better, he is climbing effectively, has a good sprint and has horsepower to TT if he gets a gap. Visma needs to take a chance, Cian for as much as I dislike him is riding well and Visma needs to send him not save him, stage wins not GC in my opinion.
This commentary conclusion that it's in the bag for Pog after just 2 days is premature.

 

[Sciatic]

Ganna has the pedigree, no surprise if he wins a Giro.

It’s kind of embarrassing to say that a rider has pedigree and thus couldn’t be possibly be associated with that other realm.

 

[AmRacer]

It's great that you are trying to enjoy the entire race instead of an individual rider, any given stage has different layers of awesomeness!!
And Pogacar is an over the top great athlete but by his standards he is certainly not dominant currently, he has for the last few years gone at 40,30,20k out, made the separation and then rode an ITT w his gap,
These 2 stages he has jumped but only a few kilometers from the finish, w a couple of riders keeping his wheel and he lost the sprint. Lipowitz is punching above his weight and he is answering to demands so far, very impressive. Ganna is riding a dual role w long uphill pulls that are not a current trademark of hour record guy and TT champion, he is looking better and better, he is climbing effectively, has a good sprint and has horsepower to TT if he gets a gap. Visma needs to take a chance, Cian for as much as I dislike him is riding well and Visma needs to send him not save him, stage wins not GC in my opinion.
This commentary conclusion that it's in the bag for Pog after just 2 days is premature.

We can only assume Pogacar don't go all in because he needs save bullets for the Tour.

 

[staubsauger]

I just read on RCN Television that they asked Martinez about why he dropped and the came back, then He said that he had a gear problem. His gear got stuck on a very low gear and that's why he was calling his team car several times on the radio. Once problem was fixed he came back to the front.

Thanks, that's vital information. So Martinez never was in difficulties and neither called back Lipowitz as suggested by Bengsch!

 

[Libertine Seguros]

It’s kind of embarrassing to say that a rider has pedigree and thus couldn’t be possibly be associated with that other realm.

Netserk was not saying that. They were using Ganna as an example of somebody who, like Thomas, has pedigree as a cyclist from a similar kind of background, but would nevertheless not be believable as a GT winner at the present time, at least based on current parcours trends.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Those glasses belong on a mafia boss strolling through the Vegas strip in the 1960s.

 

[AnotherArmChair]

I saw on Twitter someone complaiing about the love for Pantani from the Giro official etc. Saying he was a doper and shouldn't have this love.

This is from someone who has had photos of him with Musseuw when on a recent trip to Roubaix and loving it Similar to his love in for Mercx.

I will love Pantani forever as he was one of my first hero's when I first started watching Pro cycling with my elder brother. I was too young to understand the doping, I just loved watching racing and pretending I was him when riding. When he passed I remember being very upset. I still think about those early days. He was far from a saint, but he should still be alive and with his loved ones.

The love of riders is just love and it comes not always with explanation or justification. It just is

I loved Nibali and there is no point in trying to explain that

If we didn't have that love we wouldn't have watched . Pantani was before my time so I cannot comment on him

I guess some riders (like people) ar loved no matter what they do while others are not no matter how admirable they are

 

[samhocking]

Netserk was not saying that. They were using Ganna as an example of somebody who, like Thomas, has pedigree as a cyclist from a similar kind of background, but would nevertheless not be believable as a GT winner at the present time, at least based on current parcours trends.

Makes no logical sense, Wiggins and Thomas simply continued what we already knew was possible from the track with Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil etc all being world class endurance track racers, hour record holders, timetrialists etc. All that really separates their background is there was no real pathway to pay your bills and race the road in the UK and largely no real access into continental racing without essentially becoming Italian, French or Spanish like Simpson or arguably Kelly and Roche.
End of the day, it's the same 2 muscles in your legs, the same two lungs and the same capacity to move oxygen and clear lactate that decides who is fastest uphill. Track racing is about as pure as endurance gets because it doesn't even have variables, like getting a break, moving abroad, crashing, luck, not being a certain nationality etc, you are either very well suited to endurance racing on the track or you are not and are a track sprinter if you have those capacities.
I'd agree, the reason Thomas bridges the gap is for 3-4 month a year he has the mental ability to really sacrifice lifestyle in order to bridge to GC racing weight, a rider like Gaana probably won't. Tarling, maybe, but those naturally heavier TT and pursuit weight riders require way more lifestyle sacrifice than your Pogacar, Froomes or Vingegards need to be race weight.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Makes no logical sense, Wiggins and Thomas simply continued what we already knew was possible from the track with Merckx, Hinault, Indurain, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil etc all being world class endurance track racers, hour record holders, timetrialists etc. All that really separates their background is there was no real pathway to pay your bills and race the road in the UK and largely no real access into continental racing without essentially becoming Italian, French or Spanish like Simpson or arguably Kelly and Roche.
End of the day, it's the same 2 muscles in your legs, the same two lungs and the same capacity to move oxygen and clear lactate that decides who is fastest uphill. Track racing is about as pure as endurance gets because it doesn't even have variables, like getting a break, moving abroad, crashing, luck, not being a certain nationality etc, you are either very well suited to endurance racing on the track or you are not and are a track sprinter if you have those capacities.
I'd agree, the reason Thomas bridges the gap is for 3-4 month a year he has the mental ability to really sacrifice lifestyle in order to bridge to GC racing weight, a rider like Gaana or probably won't. Tarling, maybe, but those natural TT and pursuit weight requires way more sacrifice than your Pogacar, Froomes or Vingegards.

You're right Sam.

Actually everybody totally does love Geraint Thomas and he has had a totally normal and predictable career path and showed great climbing talent early. Everybody knows that the 4k pursuit is the ultimate environment to show your GT credentials. I wish the commentary team would be less critical of him.

You're totally the most objective poster on this board, and we all aspire to be as cosmopolitan and critical of our own countrymen as you.

Edit: also LOL at the idea that nationality doesn't play a role in track cycling compared to road.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I understand these will be sensitive images for some people, so i will put them in spoiler tags.

Spoiler

 

[samhocking]

You're right Sam.

Actually everybody totally does love Geraint Thomas and he has had a totally normal and predictable career path and showed great climbing talent early. Everybody knows that the 4k pursuit is the ultimate environment to show your GT credentials. I wish the commentary team would be less critical of him.

You're totally the most objective poster on this board, and we all aspire to be as cosmopolitan and critical of our own countrymen as you.

Edit: also LOL at the idea that nationality doesn't play a role in track cycling compared to road.

There was no 'normal' road and GT career path from Cardiff to a Tour de France podium when Thomas was growing up or Wiggins from London, nothing existed like in France, Italy or Spain in terms of a career path to it really until Sky. ANC Halfords really didn't count for much and not all riders want to do a Simpson, Kelly or Millar and basically become another nationality to have a road career internationally in GTs
The point is, physiology uphill or in a GT is really no different than endurance track pursuit physiology and history proves it. Of course you will have to transform if you only had track racing to pay the bills racing Olympic track, there's no choice other than to transform to go and race road!

 

[Hugh Januss]

You're right Sam.

Actually everybody totally does love Geraint Thomas and he has had a totally normal and predictable career path and showed great climbing talent early. Everybody knows that the 4k pursuit is the ultimate environment to show your GT credentials. I wish the commentary team would be less critical of him.

You're totally the most objective poster on this board, and we all aspire to be as cosmopolitan and critical of our own countrymen as you.

Edit: also LOL at the idea that nationality doesn't play a role in track cycling compared to road.

Also there are more than 2 muscles in the human leg.

 

[Red Rick]

Netserk was not saying that. They were using Ganna as an example of somebody who, like Thomas, has pedigree as a cyclist from a similar kind of background, but would nevertheless not be believable as a GT winner at the present time, at least based on current parcours trends.

What are you talking about, Ganna has done way more in the mountains than Thomas before 2015.