Teams & Riders Jonas Vingegaard: The Wizard of Visma

[Netserk]

Possibly,.
But even then for what we know Roglic and Vingegaard had an equal status back in TdF 2022. One could even say Roglic was the de-facto leader. So if Roglic isn't much weaker than Pogacar, the Tour is very different and Vingegaard EVENTUALLY doesn't get the chance to show he is the strongest.

At the time, he delivered the best climbing performances of the era in that Tour on Granon and Hautacam. I see no reason to assume that he would be chained to Rogla and not allowed to attack Pogi in yellow.

 

[bNator]

Pogi had greater luck in 2021 than Vingegaard had in 2023. So far, Pogi has been the luckiest Tour contender.

It depends: was Rogla on Pog's level in 2021 / was injury-free Pog on Vinge's level in 2023?
If yes/no -> Pog is the luckiest
If no/no or yes/yes -> same amount of luck
If no/yes -> Vinge is the luckiest

What we know for sure: Rogla was unluckiest

 

[Netserk]

It depends: was Rogla on Pog's level in 2021 / was injury-free Pog on Vinge's level in 2023?
If yes/no -> Pog is the luckiest
If no/no or yes/yes -> same amount of luck
If no/yes -> Vinge is the luckiest

What we know for sure: Rogla was unluckiest

Without any bad luck, 2021 would not have been down solely to Rogla vs. Pogi, but with Vingegaard as a viable threat as well (no injury before the Tour, no early time loss, no crash just before the most important climbs of the Tour).

 

[Elos Anjos]

You're conflating two luck sources: before the Tour and during the Tour. It's helpful if they are not put into one factor because crashes and issues before the Tour can allow riders and teams to choose or not to enter the race, while the later just feels like bitter fate.

 

[Netserk]

You're conflating two luck sources: before the Tour and during the Tour. It's helpful if they are not put into one factor because crashes and issues before the Tour can allow riders and teams to choose or not to enter the race, while the later just feels like bitter fate.

I'm not. Both were already considered in the same post of @bNator that I replied to. In the conversation I have with him, it's only natural to keep to that.

If you want to have a different conversation, by all means invite to one. But don't tell me how I should change the one I already have with someone else to fit with your preferences.

 

[YavorD]

At the time, he delivered the best climbing performances of the era in that Tour on Granon and Hautacam. I see no reason to assume that he would be chained to Rogla and not allowed to attack Pogi in yellow.

What if Rogla was stronger than Pogacar on Granon as well, I mean it their last clash at altitude, Roglic was stronger, no? Does Vingegaard or Roglic gets the upper card to attack in such a scenario?
I see even less of a reason to think that they'd pick Vingegaard at the time.

Once again, Vingegaard is and was the strongest but what @Froome claims that Roglic would've just work for Vingegaard without the crash doesn't hold any basis with what we knew back then.


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[Elos Anjos]

I'm not. Both were already considered in the same post of @bNator that I replied to. In the conversation I have with him, it's only natural to keep to that.

If you want to have a different conversation, by all means invite to one. But don't tell me how I should change the one I already have with someone else to fit with your preferences.

I'll tell you what I feel like as long your "conversation" is public. If you want to have your chat with your own bullet-proof terms, go private.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes, Pogacar really is lucky in 2022 with his team getting decimated by Covid and crashes not to mention he himself potentially having Covid.

 

[Froome]

What if Rogla was stronger than Pogacar on Granon />)))>>>)/))))))))))))))>)>as well, I mean it their last clash at altitude, Roglic was stronger, no? Does Vingegaard or Roglic gets the upper card to attack in such a scenario?
I see even less of a reason to think that they'd pick Vingegaard at the time.

Once again, Vingegaard is and was the strongest but what @Froome claims that Roglic would've just work for Vingegaard without the crash doesn't hold any basis with what we knew back then.


*

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

 

[Netserk]

Yes, Pogacar really is lucky in 2022 with his team getting decimated by Covid and crashes not to mention he himself potentially having Covid.

He was struck by imagined bad luck?

 

[AmRacer]

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

Poggi should've let Rogla go.

 

[Froome]

Poggi should've let Rogla go.

They are from the same country, but they were from a different team. Pogi could not let him go.

 

[YavorD]

Not just necessarily work for Vingegaard, but playing the 2 vs 1 until the end of the Tour. Roglic attacking and Pogacar answering to those attacks by Roglic, and then Vingegaard seize from that, and attack after Pogi being tired of answering Roglic's attacks.

Uhm, not necessarily. If Pogacar drops after an attack from Roglic (without the crash), then Vingegaard ends up working for Roglic.
So no, without the crash it's far from certain that Roglic would've worked for Vingegaard.

 

[Oldermanish]

They listen to you

Now that they have posted the requisitite thumbs-up hospital exit picture; we as super-informed analysts have to ask the big question: Do you think Jonas has put on too much weight?

 

[theyoungest]

True in the sense that hes never matched a full strenght Pogacar without injuries ever in his life in that sense hes been lucky last years with other having injuries thats factual correct ofc.(latest time we saw em was PN 23) But unfortunately crashes is part of the sport and its Vingegaard beeing injured this time, its by far the worst part of the sport, it sucks whoever it is.

What do you mean, without injuries. Was Pogacar injured in the Tour 2022? Was he in 2021? Because in both years Vingegaard dropped him on the hardest stage of the race.

There's this idea that Pogi is the bigger talent because he makes it look easy and he smiles at the camera, unlike Vingegaard. So if Vingo beats him it has to be because of Pogi's suboptimal form and Visma's super strict training regime. But if you hear it from within the team (in interviews I mean, not the insider knowledge you claim to have) it's actually more a matter of making Vingo do as little as possible, rather than as much... suggesting he's just a super talent.

 

[jono]

What do you mean, without injuries. Was Pogacar injured in the Tour 2022? Was he in 2021? Because in both years Vingegaard dropped him on the hardest stage of the race.

There's this idea that Pogi is the bigger talent because he makes it look easy and he smiles at the camera, unlike Vingegaard. So if Vingo beats him it has to be because of Pogi's suboptimal form and Visma's super strict training regime. But if you hear it from within the team (in interviews I mean, not the insider knowledge you claim to have) it's actually more a matter of making Vingo do as little as possible, rather than as much... suggesting he's just a super talent.

What's talent supposed to mean here? I mean, doesn't everyone agree that Vingegaard is the better long duration, high elevation climber, especially in hot weather, while Pogacar has a wider range of strengths, incuding explosivity?

 

[RedheadDane]

They are from the same country, but they were from a different team. Pogi could not let him go.

Are you talking specifically Granon? Because if Pogacar had let Roglic go on that stage, then Roglic could very well have taken the jersey, and gone on to win the Tour, which would also have been great for the team.

 

[Froome]

Are you talking specifically Granon? Because if Pogacar had let Roglic go on that stage, then Roglic could very well have taken the jersey, and gone on to win the Tour, which would also have been great for the team.

On that case Pogacar could had let go Roglic because he was injured.

 

[RedheadDane]

On that case Pogacar could had let go Roglic because he was injured.

He probably thought Roglic's injuries weren't so bad, since both Roglic and Vingegaard each attacked like a million times...

 

[Froome]

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Matxin is really a "saboteur". He writed a comment on Visma post, wishing Vingegaard to recover fast 😀

Vingegaard's insta is alive, finally he posted a story.

 

[RedheadDane]

Matxin is really a "saboteur". He writed a comment on Visma post, wishing Vingegaard to recover fast 😀

TBF, I can't see the comments - and I would be too lazy to go through all almost-2000 of them anyway - but I wouldn't be surprised if Pogacar has written a comment, wishing Vingegaard to recover fast.

 

[Froome]

TBF, I can't see the comments - and I would be too lazy to go through all almost-2000 of them anyway - but I wouldn't be surprised if Pogacar has written a comment, wishing Vingegaard to recover fast.

Pogacar didn't write a comment, but he liked the post.

 

[SHAD0W93]

He was struck by imagined bad luck?

Sure, having your team demolished by sickness and crashes is imagined bad luck.

 

[ontheroad]

The Tour looks like an impossible dream which will come too early but there will be plenty of idle 'will he won't he' speculation in the meantime. The Vuelta could be a realistic target though and if he makes a full recovery he would be a big favourite to win it this year.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Pogacar didn't write a comment, but he liked the post.

Brutal.