Nicolas Roche Discussion Thread

[HelloDolly]

His diary today

http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/cycling/with-alberto-jumping-on-my-wheel-i-set-the-pace-for-a-few-hundred-metres-before-he-overtook-me-36089926.html

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Likely to struggle in the longer mountain stages - Keep his form and should finish top 6 in the GC.

that seems optimistic no?

1. froome
2. Nibali
3. Chaves
4. Contador
5. Zakarin
6. De La cruz / Kelderman / Aru/Superman
so around tenth place would be more realistic

Well he didn't keep that form did he?

I dont think the form is gone...he suffered in the cold and couldn't use his legs

While he is not the greatest climber his TT is much better than alot of the above plus as we all know there is a long way to go and alot can still happen.

 

[Lexman]

Re: Re:

Likely to struggle in the longer mountain stages - Keep his form and should finish top 6 in the GC.

that seems optimistic no?

1. froome
2. Nibali
3. Chaves
4. Contador
5. Zakarin
6. De La cruz / Kelderman / Aru/Superman
so around tenth place would be more realistic

Well he didn't keep that form did he?

I dont think the form is gone...he suffered in the cold and couldn't use his legs

While he is not the greatest climber his TT is much better than alot of the above plus as we all know there is a long way to go and alot can still happen.

problem is they're going in the real high mountains from now on...

 

[vedrafjord]

Yeah he's shown many time that the cold is not his friend - notably he also blew up in cold wet weather in the 2013 Vuelta and lost 7 minutes on the last climb. I think the usual scorching heat of the Vuelta is part of the reason he generally does good there, along with the fact that it's late in the year and it takes him months to get down to race weight.

 

[movingtarget]

Roche top 10 at best. TJVG could be top 5 or top 40, can never tell with him. Although these days top 5 would be optimistic.

 

[DFA123]

Looks like the lack of hype surrounding Roche was correct. Completely found out as soon as the high mountains came. Now down to 17th after a disastrous showing today and over 20 minutes off the pace.

TJ still in with an outside chance of a top 10 though if he can put in a good time trial.

 

[bob.a.feet]

Re:

Looks like the lack of hype surrounding Roche was correct. Completely found out as soon as the high mountains came. Now down to 17th after a disastrous showing today and over 20 minutes off the pace.

TJ still in with an outside chance of a top 10 though if he can put in a good time trial.

He's too bulky to keep up in the long climbs

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Looks like the lack of hype surrounding Roche was correct. Completely found out as soon as the high mountains came. Now down to 17th after a disastrous showing today and over 20 minutes off the pace.

TJ still in with an outside chance of a top 10 though if he can put in a good time trial.

He's too bulky to keep up in the long climbs

Yeah, in hindsight it looks like the wrong strategy, given the strength of the GC competition this year (compared with when he has done better in the past). But maybe Sanchez being withdrawn forced him into playing the second GC role, rather than stage hunting.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

Looks like the lack of hype surrounding Roche was correct. Completely found out as soon as the high mountains came. Now down to 17th after a disastrous showing today and over 20 minutes off the pace.

TJ still in with an outside chance of a top 10 though if he can put in a good time trial.

Roche has always said he is not best in high mountians....he has done top 5 at Vuelta previously but then that was when there are mostly uphill finishes or climbs less tha 12KM...

Lying second there was obvioulsy speculation if he could repeat it.....juts as there was speculation about de La cruz for top 5, or Chaves for podium ..None of that worked out either

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I don't know why Roche is trying to be a GC rider. He tried a couple of times before in the Vuelta.

I think he would have been much better if he focussed his career on Ardennes classics.But it's rather late now

 

[DFA123]

Re:

I don't know why Roche is trying to be a GC rider. He tried a couple of times before in the Vuelta.

I think he would have been much better if he focussed his career on Ardennes classics.But it's rather late now

Yep, it seems to me that he has wasted his career a bit. He's a very talented rider - he can climb fairly well on most terrain and has a good sprint for a climber, but he has a pretty disappointing palmares to show for his abilities. Probably a combination of focusing on the wrong races and taking the money to be a big team domestique, rather than trying to lead a smaller team.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

I don't know why Roche is trying to be a GC rider. He tried a couple of times before in the Vuelta.

I think he would have been much better if he focussed his career on Ardennes classics.But it's rather late now

Yep, it seems to me that he has wasted his career a bit. He's a very talented rider - he can climb fairly well on most terrain and has a good sprint for a climber, but he has a pretty disappointing palmares to show for his abilities. Probably a combination of focusing on the wrong races and taking the money to be a big team domestique, rather than trying to lead a smaller team.

em have you heard of oedipus complex....if your Dad is a GT winner?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I don't know why Roche is trying to be a GC rider. He tried a couple of times before in the Vuelta.

I think he would have been much better if he focussed his career on Ardennes classics.But it's rather late now

Yep, it seems to me that he has wasted his career a bit. He's a very talented rider - he can climb fairly well on most terrain and has a good sprint for a climber, but he has a pretty disappointing palmares to show for his abilities. Probably a combination of focusing on the wrong races and taking the money to be a big team domestique, rather than trying to lead a smaller team.

em have you heard of oedipus complex....if your Dad is a GT ?

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you mean that there is pressure on him to follow the same role as his dad? Because I would argue that the opposite may be the case; that surely it would be better for him to carve his own career - maybe going for classics - rather than trying to follow in shoes that he'll never be able to fill.

 

[movingtarget]

Roche was never his father or anything close. Talented rider who never had a stand out ability as a climber, sprinter or TT rider. He probably should have made the switch as a domestique much sooner and concentrated maybe on the one week stage races but even then probably wasn't going to win them. Just under the elite level where that missing one or two percent makes all the difference.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

I don't know why Roche is trying to be a GC rider. He tried a couple of times before in the Vuelta.

I think he would have been much better if he focussed his career on Ardennes classics.But it's rather late now

He was only going for GC at this Vuelta because BMC had no other stand out options. TJ lasted longer with the leaders on 15, but not by so much that it'll make a big difference in Madrid.

Roche settled on not being a GC leader a long time ago, when he signed for Tinkoff to ride as Contador's domestique. For some reason he's never really given Liege a proper go, but he has had his best 1-day results at San Sebastián over the years. Maybe it is just that he likes the heat and the late season riding.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

Roche was never his father or anything close. Talented rider who never had a stand out ability as a climber, sprinter or TT rider. He probably should have made the switch as a domestique much sooner and concentrated maybe on the one week stage races but even then probably wasn't going to win them. Just under the elite level where that missing one or two percent makes all the difference.

I actually think that is not really correct ....

His Dad was riding in a differnt era when the competetion was not so fierce (well the amount of it and the specialism) plus other factors were in play
Roche has shown occasionaly glimpes of the ability that can win races...its there but what with weight issues,concentrating on the wrong things, being a GC leader too young and other factors he never really got it together ...

Hw would have been better to have not tried to be a GC rider ...his bulid and ability in high mountains were major handicaps.... He did give up that gaol when he signed for Tinkoff in 2013 but not completely when it came to the Vuleta and in fairness he has had good resutls at the Vuelta despite his physical handicaps

But if he had used his climbing and speed esp in the early days and tried as a rouler he would have alot better palmares now and yes a few stage race wins in the mode of Luis Leon Sanchez or Tim Wellens

 

[movingtarget]

Re: Re:

Roche was never his father or anything close. Talented rider who never had a stand out ability as a climber, sprinter or TT rider. He probably should have made the switch as a domestique much sooner and concentrated maybe on the one week stage races but even then probably wasn't going to win them. Just under the elite level where that missing one or two percent makes all the difference.

I actually think that is not really correct ....

His Dad was riding in a differnt era when the competetion was not so fierce (well the amount of it and the specialism) plus other factors were in play
Roche has shown occasionaly glimpes of the ability that can win races...its there but what with weight issues,concentrating on the wrong things, being a GC leader too young and other factors he never really got it together ...

Hw would have been better to have not tried to be a GC rider ...his bulid and ability in high mountains were major handicaps.... He did give up that gaol when he signed for Tinkoff in 2013 but not completely when it came to the Vuleta and in fairness he has had good resutls at the Vuelta despite his physical handicaps

But if he had used his climbing and speed esp in the early days and tried as a rouler he would have alot better palmares now and yes a few stage race wins in the mode of Luis Leon Sanchez or Tim Wellens

Well his father did the triple (Tour/Giro/Worlds) and beat great riders doing it. There was more than enough competition and compare that to his son, well there is no comparison. It's not even close. But I think you are right about some GC riders not testing themselves enough in one day races. Contador and Froome never did but Valverde and Cunego did well, Evans also should have done more in classics. And of course in the past most GC riders also tried the classics or some of them. No one specialized much back then but it definitely changed with Indurain and Armstrong. Stephen Roche wasn't lightly built either compared to many others.

 

[HelloDolly]

I wasnt comparing Nico to his Dad who was indeed much better ...Dan Martin is more like Stephen Roche

I meant is not fair to say Nico is not elite ...he is not great in long mountains but he is elite in other aspect when in form

 

[telencefalus]

so considering roche was having a very good nine days why not target some week races next year?

 

[Armchair cyclist]

Re:

I wasnt comparing Nico to his Dad who was indeed much better ...Dan Martin is more like Stephen Roche

I meant is not fair to say Nico is not elite ...he is not great in long mountains but he is elite in other aspect when in form

I can't remember who the manager/coach/scout was that, given the choice of Nico and Dan when they were youngsters, opted for Dan on the grounds that the genetic makeup found in Steven would be more likely to be passed down the female line. The theory being that the physical abilities are mitochondially attached, and so passed from Mrs Roche senior to Stephen, Laurence and Maria, and then from Maria to Dan, but not from Stephen to Nick and siblings.

This theory would suggest that the many father & son combinations that we see (in any sport) are more down to nurture/contacts/training, and that the similarities we ought to be able to observe are uncle-nephew combinations. (I know I have only referred to males in that sentence: its because of the prevalence of male sports in media coverage/general awareness).

Is this a generally accepted theory? Are there great uncles followed by great nephews in cycling (or other sports)?

 

[Leinster]

It was Vaughters (a not unbiased source, since he was Martin's DS at the time), as related in an article Paul Kimmage wrote, that's somewhere in the last few pages of the Dan Martin thread.

I wouldn't use Martin and Roche's respective careers as indicators of hereditary attributes though. Dan's a very different style rider to Stephen.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Pop-genetics is usually best ignored. The relationship of genetics to elite athletic performance is still very poorly understood.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re:

Pop-genetics is usually best ignored. The relationship of genetics to elite athletic performance is still very poorly understood.

This is true ...plus Nico is alot like his Dad too ....I think alot of Nico's career issues may have more to do with poor choices ( like trying to be a GT rider and early team leadership) when he would have been better to have tried one day racing etc ....

Dan Martin developed slowly, concentrated on one day racing first and has made very good choices, didnt try to run before he could walk ....so not all about the physical

 

[Leinster]

Re: Re:

Pop-genetics is usually best ignored. The relationship of genetics to elite athletic performance is still very poorly understood.

This is true ...plus Nico is alot like his Dad too ....I think alot of Nico's career issues may have more to do with poor choices ( like trying to be a GT rider and early team leadership) when he would have been better to have tried one day racing etc ....

Dan Martin developed slowly, concentrated on one day racing first and has made very good choices, didnt try to run before he could walk ....so not all about the physical

He has 5 top 10s at San Sebastian. I don't think it's that he's never tried one-day racing, just things haven't gone his way in them at all. IIRC he was Sky's designated leader at LBL in 2015, but crashed out; I'm not sure why he doesn't have more of a record there or at Lombardia, but maybe it's that short punchy climbs don't suit him as well as longer, steadier diesel climbs (the last 2 years at SanSeb, he's missed the split on the steep part of the final climb).

Martin has a finishing kick that Roche can only dream of, so it's obvious that he'd be able to target a few more one-day races. Other than that, their race programs have been pretty similar down the years, and it's only his last 2 years with Quickstep that Martin has genuinely contended in the Tour GC.

 

[HelloDolly]

Re: Re:

Pop-genetics is usually best ignored. The relationship of genetics to elite athletic performance is still very poorly understood.

This is true ...plus Nico is alot like his Dad too ....I think alot of Nico's career issues may have more to do with poor choices ( like trying to be a GT rider and early team leadership) when he would have been better to have tried one day racing etc ....

Dan Martin developed slowly, concentrated on one day racing first and has made very good choices, didnt try to run before he could walk ....so not all about the physical

He has 5 top 10s at San Sebastian. I don't think it's that he's never tried one-day racing, just things haven't gone his way in them at all. IIRC he was Sky's designated leader at LBL in 2015, but crashed out; I'm not sure why he doesn't have more of a record there or at Lombardia, but maybe it's that short punchy climbs don't suit him as well as longer, steadier diesel climbs (the last 2 years at SanSeb, he's missed the split on the steep part of the final climb).

Martin has a finishing kick that Roche can only dream of, so it's obvious that he'd be able to target a few more one-day races. Other than that, their race programs have been pretty similar down the years, and it's only his last 2 years with Quickstep that Martin has genuinely contended in the Tour GC.

While Dan Martin has a fantastic kick , Roches is very good too...just not always in the right place to put it into action

Valverde, Dan martin, Gilbert , Kwaito ...are excellent at kick up but Roche is not a million miles behind or at least was not or could have been up there a few years ago...he was a good sprinter

As I said poor choices....At some San Seb races he was working for others...like when he came 5th he spent all day working for Kreziguer and I think if he has been working for himself he could have won it such was his form that day ....

As for race programs Martin did develop slower and took GT leadersip later and it shows...