Teams & Riders Vingegaard and Pogacar in 2022 and 2023 Tours de France

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Rewatch the 2022 Tour de France. Vingegaard is just simply better as a GT rider.

Well, his focus has been far more on becoming solely a GT rider. In 2021 Pogacar already won 2 monuments. In 2022 he won one monument and also won Strade and Tre Valli. The moment Vingegaard starts shifting focus or Pogacar focusses on just one goal (TDF), i think that is when you can make a definitive claim.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Roglic contribution to that TdF was around 3 attacks going downhill/flat after the Galibier. He sure gets alot of credit for that (was great with his injury, but besides the point). Jonas was significantly better that tour, with or without Roglic.

I realize this is the stuff I can't say, now I'm a hater and should go to the Vingegaard thread.

Vingegaard was definitely the strongest after Granon, but the race could possibly have been different if Pogačar had still been within striking distance after that stage.

 

[Red Rick]

Vingegaard was definitely the strongest after Granon, but the race could possibly have been different if Pogačar had still been within striking distance after that stage.

How was he outside of striking distance? It was 2 minutes with 1 big mountain stage done and 3 left

Pog just never had it, he knew it and thats why he never made any commital attacks

 

[Netserk]

How was he outside of striking distance? It was 2 minutes with 1 big mountain stage done and 3 left

And a 40 km ITT. Where Vingegaard also beat him.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

How was he outside of striking distance? It was 2 minutes with 1 big mountain stage done and 3 left

Pog just never had it, he knew it and thats why he never made any commital attacks

Well 2:22 was clearly too much for him to take back, but if it had been in the range of a few 5-10 seconds sprint gains plus time bonuses, then I assume the last part of the race could have been different. The winner might have been the same anyway though, but we'll obviously never know.

 

[Armchair cyclist]

He had cold sores in last years TdF. But thats about it, I guess. I can’t even understand how ALL of them don’t catch cold after cycling in the rain at close to zero degrees, possibly in nothing bit arm warmers…

I might stop watching cycling if that were the case...

 

[Red Rick]

Well 2:22 was clearly too much for him to take back, but if it had been in the range of a few 5-10 seconds sprint gains plus time bonuses, then I assume the last part of the race could have been different. The winner might have been the same anyway though, but we'll obviously never know.

That was not what the narrative was. Nobody said the Tour was over until after Hautacam, and everyone rated the Tour very highly as much more than a 1 mountain stage GC battle.

There was even some minor speculation that the 2 minutes might be taken back in the ITT.

 

[Froome]

Well 2:22 was clearly too much for him to take back, but if it had been in the range of a few 5-10 seconds sprint gains plus time bonuses, then I assume the last part of the race could have been different. The winner might have been the same anyway though, but we'll obviously never know.

If it were necessary, Vingegaard could had take some time on Pogacar, on alpe d'huez or in the stage of peyresourde where mcnulty did a great job.

Vingegaard decided to wait to hautacam, but it was very clear that he were to conservative, especially on the stage of peyresourde where he could take time on Pogacar.

Vingegaard appeared always comfortable.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

That was not what the narrative was. Nobody said the Tour was over until after Hautacam, and everyone rated the Tour very highly as much more than a 1 mountain stage GC battle.

There was even some minor speculation that the 2 minutes might be taken back in the ITT.

Pogačar was still forced to ride more aggressively due to size of the gap and also because he wanted to save face after the Granon disaster, which wouldn't have had to do (but might have done anyway because of his style) if the gap had been smaller.

But I agree that he never put Vingegaard in serious trouble in the last part of the race we did get (having the superior team did help the Dane though), so it's not out of the question that he would have lost no matter what, perhaps unless he had kept yellow on Granon.

 

[SHAD0W93]

That was not what the narrative was. Nobody said the Tour was over until after Hautacam, and everyone rated the Tour very highly as much more than a 1 mountain stage GC battle.

There was even some minor speculation that the 2 minutes might be taken back in the ITT.

The only reason people thought it could be close and Pogacar could come back was due to Vingegaard being an unknown quality and possibly cracking due to the pressure.

How was he outside of striking distance? It was 2 minutes with 1 big mountain stage done and 3 left

Pog just never had it, he knew it and thats why he never made any commital attacks

Pogacar was going against a rider equally/stronger than he was while said rider had the strongest team and domestique while Pog had a depleted team that was trying to survive.

 

[Netserk]

That was not what the narrative was. Nobody said the Tour was over until after Hautacam, and everyone rated the Tour very highly as much more than a 1 mountain stage GC battle.

There was even some minor speculation that the 2 minutes might be taken back in the ITT.

In the final rest day poll, only 50 % voted for Vingegaard as winner of the Tour:

Tour de France - Tour de France 2022: Final rest day thread

Switching it up a bit with the poll. Two jerseys are all but decided, one is all but a free-for-all, and the most important one of them all is somewhere in between... not too bad a score, all in all. Will Thomas' GC position ever change? Will the French fail to land a stage win for the first...

forum.cyclingnews.com

 

[Froome]

In the final rest day poll, only 50 % voted for Vingegaard as winner of the Tour:

Tour de France - Tour de France 2022: Final rest day thread

Switching it up a bit with the poll. Two jerseys are all but decided, one is all but a free-for-all, and the most important one of them all is somewhere in between... not too bad a score, all in all. Will Thomas' GC position ever change? Will the French fail to land a stage win for the first...

forum.cyclingnews.com

One minute of silence for the 9 souls who voted for Thomas.

 

[Netserk]

The only reason people thought it could be close and Pogacar could come back was due to Vingegaard being an unknown quality and possibly cracking due to the pressure.


Pogacar was going against a rider equally/stronger than he was while said rider had the strongest team and domestique while Pog had a depleted team that was trying to survive.

In hindsight, the Tour was "over" after Granon, but it sounds like you agree with Red Rick that at the time, it still seemed wide open.

That would also match with you actually voting for Pogi to win the Tour in the poll I linked.

 

[Miha81]

In hindsight, the Tour was "over" after Granon, but it sounds like you agree with Red Rick that at the time, it still seemed wide open.

That would also match with you actually voting for Pogi to win the Tour in the poll I linked.

TBH Pogi looked invincible until Granon. There were some slight weaknesses shown in 2021 edition but I think we ignored them since that tour was wrapped after stage 8. I also thought there was possibility for him to turn things around in 2022 edition after Granon but obviously later saw that Vinge was stronger in second part of race.

 

[Froome]

We also lost a fair battle last year IMO (the wrist).

The wrist was good during the Tour. He was even doing backflips in the pool before the TT, plus he started to train very soon in the turbo trainer.

Unfortunately we already lost some big battles this year on Basque Country and on the classics because of what happened to Van aert.

Let's hope everybody will be in the Tour.

 

[SHAD0W93]

In hindsight, the Tour was "over" after Granon, but it sounds like you agree with Red Rick that at the time, it still seemed wide open.

That would also match with you actually voting for Pogi to win the Tour in the poll I linked.

Yes I agree that at the time it seemed wide open due to what I stated. Looking back with the last two years of hindsight we can firmly say that no after Gannon the Tour was no longer wide open.

Yes I did vote for him, but I would say I’m probably 25% right on polls as I vote for who I want to win/like. I think the only outlighter was Cav at the 2021 Tour for being correct on an outside pick at the time.

 

[kn0s]

TBH Pogi looked invincible until Granon. There were some slight weaknesses shown in 2021 edition but I think we ignored them since that tour was wrapped after stage 8. I also thought there was possibility for him to turn things around in 2022 edition after Granon but obviously later saw that Vinge was stronger in second part of race.

Agreed, we didn't have much to go on. Jonas dropping Pog on Ventoux in 21 and then Granon, that's not much "data".

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Even before Granon I felt that Vingo had a decent 30% shot at the Tour (Pog was still #1 favourite OFC) but after Granon it seemed to me like a very difficult task for Pog. I hoped that Pog maybe would fly away on Vingo's worse day (he had a crash before Pyrenees) but it never happened. No attacks worked and Vingo put time into Pog again in Hautacam (I hadn't expected it).

 

[bNator]

Even before Hautacam, I was pretty sure Pog was not going to turn things around anymore. But what happened on Granon was due to tactics and respective team strengths just as much as it was down to Jonas being able to finish Pog. UAE messed up not being with Pog in the valley towards Galibier and of course, he had Wout to worry about who was in front and could help whoever of both TJV guys managed to get away. Without Wout in front, Pog can let Roglic go solo on Galibier. And without Pogs attack on Galibier (which could be considered a defensive manoeuvre), there is probably no Granon.

After Granon there was a possibility Pog just had a bad day, but a couple of mountain stages later it was clear to me that Pog is up against a serious foe.

Granon stage was also the day I started rooting for Pog. In my mind, he became the underdog that day... man against the machine😁

 

[Cookster15]

The wrist was good during the Tour. He was even doing backflips in the pool before the TT, plus he started to train very soon in the turbo trainer.

Unfortunately we already lost some big battles this year on Basque Country and on the classics because of what happened to Van aert.

Let's hope everybody will be in the Tour.

Disagree. I think the interrupted prep robbed us of a closer fight last year.

The damage was done before "the pool". IMO no way would Pogacar have collapsed on Col de la Loze if not for lack of base-load condition as a consequence of his LBL crash and subsequent inability to recover from the TT the day before. You can't do 6 hour zone 2 on a trainer, not the same. But this has all been discussed before.

 

[Red Rick]

In hindsight, the Tour was "over" after Granon, but it sounds like you agree with Red Rick that at the time, it still seemed wide open.

That would also match with you actually voting for Pogi to win the Tour in the poll I linked.

Don't confuse me saying the main narrative was that it was still wide open for me saying it was wide open. My only post in the very thread that you cite is that only a crash could stop Vingegaard.

 

[Froome]

I

Disagree. I think the interrupted prep robbed us of a closer fight last year.

The damage was done before "the pool". IMO no way would Pogacar have collapsed on Col de la Loze if not for lack of base-load condition as a consequence of his LBL crash and subsequent inability to recover from the TT the day before. You can't do 6 hour zone 2 on a trainer, not the same. But this has all been discussed before.

I don't believe the wrist had some impact because he started soon on the turbo trainer, and he was producing his best performances ever in the Tour.

He just had a bad day, he didn’t fade during the rest all of the third week. He did a great ITT and won stage 20 in the vosges.

If i remember correctly, he had a crash on la loze stage, and also he had gastric problems, that seriously affected him. I think this were the main factors who prevent him from doing a expected performance on La Loze stage.

Nevertheless, in normal conditions, i believe Pogacar would not take time on that stage, i believe he would lose 45 s/1 min on col de la Loze to Vingegaard. It was a stage with >5000 m vertical meters, altitude, more suited for Vingegaard.

 

[kn0s]

Even before Hautacam, I was pretty sure Pog was not going to turn things around anymore. But what happened on Granon was due to tactics and respective team strengths just as much as it was down to Jonas being able to finish Pog. UAE messed up not being with Pog in the valley towards Galibier and of course, he had Wout to worry about who was in front and could help whoever of both TJV guys managed to get away. Without Wout in front, Pog can let Roglic go solo on Galibier. And without Pogs attack on Galibier (which could be considered a defensive manoeuvre), there is probably no Granon.

After Granon there was a possibility Pog just had a bad day, but a couple of mountain stages later it was clear to me that Pog is up against a serious foe.

Granon stage was also the day I started rooting for Pog. In my mind, he became the underdog that day... man against the machine😁

Visma tactics surly made the differences bigger, no doubt. Still think Granon is solid Jonas country, but Pog should always get second there.

Visma tactics can be scary. If you look at the Loze stage and Jonas jumping from helper to helper, it was just mad.

Then again they made some big mistakes after the crazy Marie Blanc performance, being very over confident.

 

[Froome]

Even before Granon I felt that Vingo had a decent 30% shot at the Tour (Pog was still #1 favourite OFC) but after Granon it seemed to me like a very difficult task for Pog. I hoped that Pog maybe would fly away on Vingo's worse day (he had a crash before Pyrenees) but it never happened. No attacks worked and Vingo put time into Pog again in Hautacam (I hadn't expected it).

I believed Vingegaard could win the Tour after the shape he showed on Plateau de Solaison, but i always thought after Granon that Pogacar could still win the race, because i feared Vingegaard's regularity until the end of the Tour. He could had a bad day and lose the Tour.

 

[Rob5091]

I

I don't believe the wrist had some impact because he started soon on the turbo trainer, and he was producing his best performances ever in the Tour.

He just had a bad day, he didn’t fade during the rest all of the third week. He did a great ITT and won stage 20 in the vosges.

If i remember correctly, he had a crash on la loze stage, and also he had gastric problems, that seriously affected him. I think this were the main factors who prevent him from doing a expected performance on La Loze stage.

Nevertheless, in normal conditions, i believe Pogacar would not take time on that stage, i believe he would lose 45 s/1 min on col de la Loze to Vingegaard. It was a stage with >5000 m vertical meters, altitude, more suited for Vingegaard.

UAE had also sent 2 guys up the road in the break so something was planned. The crash, the 2 weeks fatigue and some problem eating all combined.