Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[noob]

The more I look at it with my noob eyes it seems like this; if everyone is microdosing it would make zero sense it wouldn't filter out all of those who doesn't respond well, so that the others couldn't even reach UCI top 30 or even 50 in a year. Hence Pog (or Jonas) results can't be explained by good responding. It makes too little sense. Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

It's also interesting how my noob brain is starting to shift from "Armstrong was worse than the others" to "Armstrong was targeted because he was a psychopath and people wanted revenge". It also makes Greg Lemond even more problematic, but that's another story lol.

 

[Extinction]

I'd argue that is a subjective view. My subjective view is Vingegaard's rise is explained by doping and that he is a better responder than Pog.

It seems clear that Visma are every bit as cutting edge in doping as UAE. Oxygen vector doping boosts aerobic efficiency. How can you can you say Vingegaard is more genetically aerobically efficient?? Because his dad said he has a 103 VO2 max? Why didn't an athlete with world record aerobic efficiency do anything noteworthy in cycling before Ventoux in the 2021 TdF? Nobody had Vingegaard on any list of contenders until 7th July 2021.

Well, "I'd argue" already announces the subective view. I'd like to know lots of data on Pogacar, but everything is top secret. There are many reasons why someone with shattering genetics doesn't come to the fore: lack of interest, dedication, passion, technique etc., this in itself is no indicator of physical talent. But talent alone, without applied race circumstances remains theoretical. Anyway, I doub't Pog and Vingo are deficient in modern doping, however, I'd bet on Vingo for aerobic capcity, Pog for all the rest.

 

[Savant12]

Pog is Merckx’s secret love child. Got all the good genes and blood.

 

[Nomad]

Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

What could these "different/new" drug(s) be that are so clandestine & secret from the anti-doping agencies? (Inquiring minds want to know. Lol)

Through the history of doping in professional sports there's been undetectable, under the radar PEDs that weren't kept undetectable nor secret for very long. Remember CERA? (3rd gen ESA). It came out in 2007 & was all the rave of all endurance athletes since it was not only undetectable but it only required once or twice a month dosing to reach target Hgb levels. But it didn't taken long for WADA to catch wind about this new ESA, and once they conferred with the manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, they developed a test for it. Riccardo Ricco was the first casualty when he tested positive for CERA at the 08 Tour. Next came many more on re-tests. Now only a fool would use CERA. Lol.

And there's BALCO & the undetectable designer steroid, "The Clear" (Tetrahdyrogestrinone/"THG"). It didn't take very long for a whistleblower to blow open Victor Conte & his BALCO operation plus good detective work by USADA in identifying THC & developing a test for it.

So, if there's some underground magic potion(s) out there, I don't know how it can be kept secret from anti-doping this long?

 

[Red Rick]

The more I look at it with my noob eyes it seems like this; if everyone is microdosing it would make zero sense it wouldn't filter out all of those who doesn't respond well, so that the others couldn't even reach UCI top 30 or even 50 in a year. Hence Pog (or Jonas) results can't be explained by good responding. It makes too little sense. Either a different /new drug, a different method, a combo of both or a new method of hiding whatever they take so that they can take a higher dose than others.

It's also interesting how my noob brain is starting to shift from "Armstrong was worse than the others" to "Armstrong was targeted because he was a psychopath and people wanted revenge". It also makes Greg Lemond even more problematic, but that's another story lol.

Armstrong absolutely had his connections with the UCI, and him outdoping the rest is absolutely plausible based on what we know. That in itself is seperated from the fact that his own hubris was his undoing that he made too many people just say "*** that guy" in the end.

And I agree on microdosing. It might still be a thing. But I really don't believe for a second that is all that is going on right now.

My general thinking right now is we're kinda focusing too much on oxygen vectors when that's probably the most well monitored variable out there, and thus the hardest to manipulate without getting busted.

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures. But peptides and drugs with a more intracellular mode of action is probably the more interesting direction.

 

[noob]

What could these "different/new" drug(s) be that are so clandestine & secret from the anti-doping agencies? (Inquiring minds want to know. Lol)

Through the history of doping in professional sports there's been undetectable, under the radar PEDs that weren't kept undetectable nor secret for very long. Remember CERA? (3rd gen ESA). It came out in 2007 & was all the rave of all endurance athletes since it was not only undetectable but it only required once or twice a month dosing to reach target Hgb levels. But it didn't taken long for WADA to catch wind about this new ESA, and once they conferred with the manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, they developed a test for it. Riccardo Ricco was the first casualty when he tested positive for CERA at the 08 Tour. Next came many more on re-tests. Now only a fool would use CERA. Lol.

And there's BALCO & the undetectable designer steroid, "The Clear" (Tetrahdyrogestrinone/"THG"). It didn't take very long for a whistleblower to blow open Victor Conte & his BALCO operation plus good detective work by USADA in identifying THC & developing a test for it.

So, if there's some underground magic potion(s) out there, I don't know how it can be kept secret from anti-doping this long?

I don't know. It's just oh so quiet. Too quiet.
There hasn't been a big bust for quite some time despite the peleton going faster and breaking climbing records. So obviously they're doing something better than in the past. Overall.

The term "super responder" to medication doesn’t sound accurate to me though. It sounds too magical/unspecific and rarely is an explanation down to one isolated factor.) Less side effects could only partially explain it.

But/and/or:

The broken climbing records, faster times and longer attacks could also be partially explained by stages being shorter?

And/or etc

Who really wants another big bust, knowing how it affected the sport last time? How would such thoughts not influence people involved in the process? How could teams not be aware of this?

What I mean is basically there doesn't even have to be bribes for people not to get caught. Or for teams taking bigger risks since they assume someone will save them. Because no one involved wants to kill cycling.

 

[Mayomaniac]

Armstrong absolutely had his connections with the UCI, and him outdoping the rest is absolutely plausible based on what we know. That in itself is seperated from the fact that his own hubris was his undoing that he made too many people just say "*** that guy" in the end.

And I agree on microdosing. It might still be a thing. But I really don't believe for a second that is all that is going on right now.

My general thinking right now is we're kinda focusing too much on oxygen vectors when that's probably the most well monitored variable out there, and thus the hardest to manipulate without getting busted.

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures. But peptides and drugs with a more intracellular mode of action is probably the more interesting direction.

At the same time the bio passport has been dismanteled in court multiple times, so taking more risks with tranfusions and microdosing epo seems to be on the card.
Also the problems with the current Epo test...

 

[Netserk]

Also, the talk about literal gene doping doesn't really make sense cause if it was literally that we'd be seeing headlines everywhere about gene therapy miracle cures.

Agreed, but we do see such headlines.

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/latest-db-oto-results-show-dramatically-improved-hearing-normal

I lean most towards some kind of blood doping, we know it works and that it can explain such speeds.

 

[Red Rick]

Agreed, but we do see such headlines.

https://investor.regeneron.com/news-releases/news-release-details/latest-db-oto-results-show-dramatically-improved-hearing-normal

I lean most towards some kind of blood doping, we know it works and that it can explain such speeds.

That's a phase 2 trial where the news was published this week. Would take a bit more for gene doping to spread very wide in the peloton I think. I think the targets for gene doping in cyclists would also be a lot less specific than in this specific instance.

 

[Netserk]

Yeah, I don't think it's plausible with the timing of the acceleration of the peloton. I'd think it should be possible (in the future) to increase natural production of testosterone, growth-hormone and EPO. I don't know how poly-genetic those are, but I guess it's like height, so with the order of magnitude of ~10,000 genes.

 

[SorelyBoy]

We can speculate until the cows come home as to what methods are being used, no one knows. However, anyone suggesting that if there was doping going on then they would have been popped by now hasn’t been paying attention. History shows us that Armstrong wasn’t lanced because he was caught doping via a test, but because someone blabbed and kept blabbing until others blabbed and eventually the whole house cards came tumbling down, aided and abetted by a few decent and indefatigably curious journalists whose experience told them Armstrong’s performances failed the credulity test. Armstrong was ultimately undone by hubris, and by the fact that he treated people appallingly. That’s a total recipe for disaster no matter how ruthless and well resourced you are. Because of course, he had already been caught out in a test only to make that test go away by bunging the UCI a substantial amount of money. He corrupted the governing body and made them his ***, and they allowed themselves to be corrupted because Armstrong was a good news story, the poster boy for the sport, a worldwide superstar (ten times the star than Pogacar is currently) who transcended and transformed the sport and made it bigger then ever. Hence the comment about not spitting in the soup. It was a huge bowl that everyone was supping from and getting fat on. If anyone thinks that couldn’t happen today well, I think, like so many people back then, they’re rejecting the evidence of their eyes and ears.

 

[the delgados]

Greed in the sense of taking all the spoils, sooner or later you make enemies (amongst colleagues and those with vested interests in alternative outcomes).

See you in twenty years.

 

[Cookster15]

The Clinic is at its best when there is genuine discussion and speculation on what new methods might be. But we still don't have much clue just pure speculation. Gene doping doesn't look likely. Still some form of blood manipulation IMO.

For my 2 cents worth. I think the passport still has a deterrence effect. The downsides of the passport is it costs a lot of time and money to build rider profiles and then to get through court the burden of proof has been set unreasonably high by lawyers IMO. I think that's why it took 6 years to nail Cobo. So teams/ doctors will dope to a threshold they think they can get away with based upon precedent.

If they could compress the 6 years down to a 24 hour test then we would have something. But that seems impossible as medical research is developing new drugs and techniques all the time and sports anti doping testing will never keep ahead of that. Cera is an example where there was a window exploited but that window was closed.

 

[Rob5091]

With all the comparisons to Pantani and Pogi getting the sniffles, is there a "Colombian" connection?!

 

[ivanic]

I don't think these are microdoses and blood bags, at least not for the two superstar of UAE and Jumbo. This is gene doping, mRNA.

Watch Prati di Tivo, Martinez was a sweat mask and Pogacar was me on a ebike.

Michele probably doesn't even know what they are using and with antidoping controls during the races they will never find anything.

 

[Nick2413]

I don't think these are microdoses and blood bags, at least not for the two superstar of UAE and Jumbo. This is gene doping, mRNA.

Watch Prati di Tivo, Martinez was a sweat mask and Pogacar was me on a ebike.

Michele probably doesn't even know what they are using and with antidoping controls during the races they will never find anything.

This makes sense to me. I don’t know anything about gene doping but I expect formal studies to lag several years behind undercover operations. They probably already know how to do successful gene doping but there are just a massive amount of restrictions annd hurdles around clinical trials. To my understanding they had developed mRNA vaccines within a couple weeks after March 2020 but it took over a year to get them out for obvious reasons. In a covert operation nobody cares about the red tape.

 

[the delgados]

I don't think these are microdoses and blood bags, at least not for the two superstar of UAE and Jumbo. This is gene doping, mRNA.

Watch Prati di Tivo, Martinez was a sweat mask and Pogacar was me on a ebike.

Michele probably doesn't even know what they are using and with antidoping controls during the races they will never find anything.

Pogacar was not even sweating at the end of the 40 km. TT.
Check out when his assistant removes his helmet moments after the finish. His hair seemed to be bone dry.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar was not even sweating at the end of the 40 km. TT.
Check out when his assistant removes his helmet moments after the finish. His hair seemed to be bone dry.

He looked pretty tired though. The TT was intense and maybe that's why he didn't decide to attack on Prati di Tivo (to avoid deep efforts in consecutive days). I'm not even sure if they will decide for another solo, given the Tour in mind.

 

[Cookster15]

He looked pretty tired though. The TT was intense and maybe that's why he didn't decide to attack on Prati di Tivo (to avoid deep efforts in consecutive days). I'm not even sure if they will decide for another solo, given the Tour in mind.

Maybe. I agree with the bolded comment. Yes he did look tired after the TT, but recovered by the following day when he looked fresh. I am hoping Pog didn't attack on Prati di Tivo as he has winning the double in the back of his mind. A sign of maturity and riding to a plan? Winning the sprint in a MTF doesn't drain reserves like an attack off the front does.

 

[Nomad]

I don't think these are microdoses and blood bags, at least not for the two superstar of UAE and Jumbo. This is gene doping, mRNA.

You have me really confused now - is mRNA gene doping different from the gene doping that is already out there?

Are you familiar with FG-4592? (Roxadustat) - touted by endurance athletes as "oxygen in a pill." FG-4592 is a hypoxia-inducible factor (HIF) that activates target genes that regulate erythropoiesis.

“Oxygen in a pill”: the next big thing in sports doping?

Much has been written in recent years about the future of doping in cycling and what drug, if any, will replace EPO as the substance of choice. Previously

velo.outsideonline.com

But like with CERA, the manufacturer assisted WADA in developing a test for FG4592:

Detection by LC-MS/MS of HIF stabilizer FG-4592 used as a new doping agent: Investigation on a positive case - PubMed

Stabilizing the labile factor HIF (hypoxia inducible factor) for therapeutic use has led to the development of various molecules by pharmaceutical companies. These HIF stabilizers show promising erythropoiesis stimulating capacities and are of great interest for patients with chronical kidney...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Taborre positive for novel EPO stimulating drug FG-4592 | Cyclingnews.com

Second doping case for Androni, team suspended

www.cyclingnews.com

 

[Hugh Januss]

Experimental Performance-Enhancing Drug Available Online

An experimental performance-enhancing drug is available online, before it has been approved for human consumption, The New York Times reports. Two cyclists recently tested positive for the drug, FG-4592.

drugfree.org

 

[Ripper]

Experimental Performance-Enhancing Drug Available Online

An experimental performance-enhancing drug is available online, before it has been approved for human consumption, The New York Times reports. Two cyclists recently tested positive for the drug, FG-4592.

drugfree.org

You know you can test positive for that by being near certain hotel kitchens?

 

[Nick2413]

Serious question, is all the nostril clearing Pogacar does related to anything clinical? I’ve never seen anyone do it as much as him, and it’s pretty much a trademark whenever he’s attacking.

 

[Rob5091]

Serious question, is all the nostril clearing Pogacar does related to anything clinical? I’ve never seen anyone do it as much as him, and it’s pretty much a trademark whenever he’s attacking.

He's admitted to a cold/allergy/nasal problems which apparently is going around the peloton at the Giro. Otherwise it might just be a habit or something else.

 

[Ripper]

It's funny how inoculated we are becoming. Fairly ridiculous performances are the new normal.