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The Real Football Thread

Page 182 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
This was the real quiz anyway

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Tell you who wont be winning the highly prestigious fair play award any time soon.

Argentina. The dirty feckers.

No arrests either, have some of that!!!
In terms on anti-fair play in this tournament nobody was even close to the Dutch. The amount of douchebaggery they displayed around their game against Argentina would have even made the likes of Nigel de Jong and Bert van Marwijk proud. Nobody could fault the Argentinians for celebrating straight into their faces after winning the shootout.
 
RIP Pelé 1940 to 29 December 2022

I don’t come from a soccer nation but I know enough about sport to know he did amazing things and is an icon. People talk about Maradona or Messi but maybe Pelé was the best ever?
Most people have acknowledged him as the best ever, with everybody else jockeying to try to match his achievements.

The problem is that the game has changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the days he was competing in, so you can't make a realistic comparison of the two, it's like comparing Pogačar and Vingegaard to Coppi and Bartali, or today's F1 drivers to those who competed in the age when death was a constant spectre. The record keeping from back then is less reliable, the Brazilian teams made a lot of their money with European invitational tours, there was no unified Brazilian national championship for much of his career, there were fewer World Cup matches, but fewer competitive teams at said World Cups, and also the balls they used, the boots they had to wear, the pitches they played on and what the defenders were allowed to do were simply incomparable to today. Simultaneously the loyalties in terms of the national leagues were far stronger and the amount of times you truly saw the best compete against the best in the kind of globetrotting superteams that make up the elite levels today was far lower in those days, such that to be honest, I think that helps Pelé retain an aura that many subsequent stars can't - and likely never will - quite replicate, because with the spread of coverage and the concentration of almost all the biggest stars into a small number of teams and leagues, you can see them do their thing week in, week out which, unless you lived in or around Santos, was never possible with Pelé. The opportunity of seeing Messi play doesn't seem special, doesn't seem exciting, because he's been playing La Liga - broadcast worldwide weekly, especially the biggest teams - and the Champions' League every season for the last fifteen years.

The other thing is the fact that Pelé came along at a time when football was still experimenting; the traditional W-M formation was just starting to change, different styles in different nations were still much more broadly differentiated from one another than today, and of course, you can only be the first one once. Back in those days, players just got their jerseys, #1 to #11, based on their position, and it was only later with World Cup squad numbers that you saw any iconic players with a number above that (Johan Cruyff with #14 is probably the first); to this day these jerseys come with a greater level of prestige and desirability due to the immediate implication of being in the first team.

The world has seen many iconic stars who have become synonymous with the #10 jersey - and with Maradona and Messi you named two of them - but coming at the start of the televised World Cup age and being the biggest star and the main attraction within the team regarded as the unmissable greatest show on earth, Pelé is the largest part of why that particular jersey has such prestige, and no amount of veneration or stat-watching built around a collection of more recent club trophies that Pelé never had available to him will ever be able to change that.
 
Most people have acknowledged him as the best ever, with everybody else jockeying to try to match his achievements.

The problem is that the game has changed so much as to be unrecognisable from the days he was competing in, so you can't make a realistic comparison of the two, it's like comparing Pogačar and Vingegaard to Coppi and Bartali, or today's F1 drivers to those who competed in the age when death was a constant spectre. The record keeping from back then is less reliable, the Brazilian teams made a lot of their money with European invitational tours, there was no unified Brazilian national championship for much of his career, there were fewer World Cup matches, but fewer competitive teams at said World Cups, and also the balls they used, the boots they had to wear, the pitches they played on and what the defenders were allowed to do were simply incomparable to today. Simultaneously the loyalties in terms of the national leagues were far stronger and the amount of times you truly saw the best compete against the best in the kind of globetrotting superteams that make up the elite levels today was far lower in those days, such that to be honest, I think that helps Pelé retain an aura that many subsequent stars can't - and likely never will - quite replicate, because with the spread of coverage and the concentration of almost all the biggest stars into a small number of teams and leagues, you can see them do their thing week in, week out which, unless you lived in or around Santos, was never possible with Pelé. The opportunity of seeing Messi play doesn't seem special, doesn't seem exciting, because he's been playing La Liga - broadcast worldwide weekly, especially the biggest teams - and the Champions' League every season for the last fifteen years.

The other thing is the fact that Pelé came along at a time when football was still experimenting; the traditional W-M formation was just starting to change, different styles in different nations were still much more broadly differentiated from one another than today, and of course, you can only be the first one once. Back in those days, players just got their jerseys, #1 to #11, based on their position, and it was only later with World Cup squad numbers that you saw any iconic players with a number above that (Johan Cruyff with #14 is probably the first); to this day these jerseys come with a greater level of prestige and desirability due to the immediate implication of being in the first team.

The world has seen many iconic stars who have become synonymous with the #10 jersey - and with Maradona and Messi you named two of them - but coming at the start of the televised World Cup age and being the biggest star and the main attraction within the team regarded as the unmissable greatest show on earth, Pelé is the largest part of why that particular jersey has such prestige, and no amount of veneration or stat-watching built around a collection of more recent club trophies that Pelé never had available to him will ever be able to change that.
I think Pele winning 3 World Cups and being the biggest footballer from the biggest football country also plays a huge role, along with the fact that football is a team sports which inherently makes it much easier to dismiss statistics as a counterargument.

I never looked into Pele's career much, but for comparison if people wanna put Rod Laver into the tennis GOAT debates I just chuckle.
 
They say Seria A is bad but them teams have been doing good lately in European competition. Not just this year. IMO the big name players maybe lacking because of money but the tactical brains have always been there
Serie A has been pretty competitive this year, you have around 7 clubs that are on a really good level and iron sharpens iron. A decent amount of high level opponents in the league and many of the smaller team also having their tactics on point when they go up against a big team.
 
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I was looking for the match where Italy lost to Italy in USA 94 and saw this...anyone know who the commentator is? Dino and Roberto are not brothers...the baggios
View: https://youtu.be/iOmJFwju2e4

George Hamilton I believe? A touch before my time so could be wrong.

As an aside, my grandparents were Irish so Charlton's early 90s team is legendary round here and still fondly remembered. Would've taken an Englishman of rare class and character to be as loved as he was in Ireland at that particular moment in history. He helped and supported the miners when they were on strike too, twice the man his brother was.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaCMu9NOpsw
 
This German team will probably be lethal next time around once the likes of Lena Oberdorf, Klara Bühl and Jule Brand are a bit more experienced, but their naïveté showed as against a Colombian team which focused on being all the things we don't historically associate with Colombian football - industrious, organised, defensively sound, making common sense decisions, and sometimes the Germans just for all the skill advantage they displayed just couldn't pick out the right passes or make the necessary decisions. And yes, the Colombians would sometimes descend into the negative stereotype of getting a few less cultured kicks in to keep players out of the game. Luckily Linda Caicedo is here to give us a bit of what we do historically associate positively with Colombian football - mercurial, unpredictable and occasionally brilliant moments of skill.
 
This German team will probably be lethal next time around once the likes of Lena Oberdorf, Klara Bühl and Jule Brand are a bit more experienced, but their naïveté showed as against a Colombian team which focused on being all the things we don't historically associate with Colombian football - industrious, organised, defensively sound, making common sense decisions, and sometimes the Germans just for all the skill advantage they displayed just couldn't pick out the right passes or make the necessary decisions. And yes, the Colombians would sometimes descend into the negative stereotype of getting a few less cultured kicks in to keep players out of the game. Luckily Linda Caicedo is here to give us a bit of what we do historically associate positively with Colombian football - mercurial, unpredictable and occasionally brilliant moments of skill.

The German team should perform better than this. I watched their match against Zambia ahead of the tournament, and it pretty much played out the same was as against Colombia, with them getting a late equaliser, but then still losing right at the end, despite being the strongest team on the pitch.
 
Serie A has been pretty competitive this year, you have around 7 clubs that are on a really good level and iron sharpens iron. A decent amount of high level opponents in the league and many of the smaller team also having their tactics on point when they go up against a big team.
I think the "Serie A is bad" mostly boils down to the big Italian clubs missing out or getting dropped out of the latest steps of escalation for capital concentration / liberalism in football + the national team having erratic results which is, IMO, interpreted as formation and development of young players not being as good as in the past.
I heard projected TV rights were well below expectation for the next broadcast contract though that's not Italy specific (France went through the exact same) so financially it's not getting better soon.
Inter Milan getting to the final of the Champion's League was unexpected, the whole format has been increasingly designed to favour the 8-10 clubs at the top of the financial pyramid, and it mostly worked (just look at how repetitive final placings are for the last two decades). Inter is firmly a tier below them now. But it's still a cup, I wish it happened more often.

Serie A not as elite as it used to be and certainly a step or two behind the Premier League (that's everyone now, really) but to me it was always fairly competitive except perhaps during the latest Juventus bout of dominance.
 
Good to know this was resolved successfully - (Nice is one of Sir Jim's projects with Brailsford for a time working there)
https://tribuna.com/en/news/footbal...afe-after-threatening-to-jump-off-the-bridge/
Alexis Beka Beka, who had threatened to jump from the Magnan viaduct in Nice, was safely taken off the scene.

The situation involved negotiations with a club psychologist on-site, alongside the efforts of emergency services, firemen, and the military. The incident reportedly happened because of a romantic breakup.
 
Sportswashing, soccer and warfare -
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...mier-league-football-geopolitics-saudi-arabia
(quote)The more sympathetic view is that this is a deeply compromised area for all sport, and for football in particular. Certainly the Premier League faces a high-jeopardy straddling of the political and cultural divide it has opened up in pursuit of its rapacious commercial aims.
...
The Premier League has willingly thrown its doors open to this tornado of political influence, where such interests are now not just inside the building but sitting at the top table. This is what sportswashing looks like, it turns out.

Not just influence and visibility, but an arm of bloody international relations right on your doorstep, dressed in your colours, still couched, dimly, behind the idea – laughter in the dark here – of sport as a force for good.(end quote)
 
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https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...of-race-to-buy-manchester-united-from-glazers

Sheikh Jassim bin Hamad al-Thani has informed Manchester United’s owners, the Glazers, that he has withdrawn from the process to buy the club, viewing their valuation as highly unrealistic when compared to his £5bn-plus final offer. This leaves Sir Jim Ratcliffe as the only other publicly declared interested potential purchaser.

The decision will come as a bitter blow to the large constituency of United supporters who remain deeply unhappy with the Glazers’ ownership due to the near-£1bn debt the club has been saddled with.

The Qatari billionaire’s offer was a cash bid for a 100% stake and guaranteed further funds to completely clear the debt.

United are valued at about $3.2bn (£2.63m), with Sheikh Jassim’s offer close to double that amount. Yet after further recent discussions the Glazers made clear their asking price and Sheikh Jassim pulled out after what sources close to him describe as “a fanciful and outlandish valuation”. He had also pledged a further $1.7bn to finance transfers, plans for a new stadium and training centre facilities, plus city and community regeneration projects.

He is now out of the process unless the Glazers lower their valuation to possibly revive his interest, meaning only the offer from Ratcliffe, one of Britain’s richest people, remains. While his initial offer was for around 51% it was reported recently this has changed to 25%.
See also -
https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...s-bid-to-buy-manchester-united-after-concerns