109 clenbuterol positives in U17 football WC

[LouieLouie]

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7115036/clenbuterol-found-most-players-17-world-cup

A majority of the players tested at the Under-17 World Cup in Mexico had traces of clenbuterol in their bodies because they ate contaminated meat, FIFA said Monday.

Tests in Germany after the tournament revealed players from 19 of the 24 teams had adverse findings of the banned anabolic agent in 109 of 208 urine samples.

Anyone still think Bertie won't walk away?

 

[hrotha]

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7115036/clenbuterol-found-most-players-17-world-cup



Anyone still think Bertie won't walk away?

Interesting. Presumably they do the same kind of controls in Europe, but we've yet to hear of mass positives. You'd think clen isn't a problem in the EU.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7115036/clenbuterol-found-most-players-17-world-cup



Anyone still think Bertie won't walk away?

I still think he won't walk away.
Mexico has a serious problem with clen - nothing new there.
Contadors serious problem is that he was caught in the EU and it is up to him to show how the clen got in to his system - I have seen nothing so far to show he has done that.

 

[BroDeal]

Does Mexican beef get exported to europe? I am sure a lot of it makes it way to the U.S., by hook or by crook.

There has been some talk about using different standards for different countries, but that would seem to ignore the realities of global trade.

 

[Race Radio]

Bertie was not in Mexico, or China, and he is not going to walk

 

[inri2000]

Bertie was not in Mexico, or China, and he is not going to walk

Let me guess, you met a blind man and he taught you how to see?

 

[Cloxxki]

I told you Contador would be siking the world after his positive.
It means nothing that more people test positieve after him, let alone in Mexico.
The way he tested positive, all signs are he doped.

 

[python]

i know that the majority want to connect the event to contador .

this is understandable, but i keep trying to point to another connection - the more important one - to wada rules covering clen doping

this is the 3d news within a week or two when wada said it will not pursue doping. all despite it’s own crispy clear regulations (confirmed for 2012):

(i) absolute zero tolerance for clen - not a molecule is allowed
(ii) unwavering adherence to the principle of strict liability, which essentially means unless an athlete can produce a meat sample with clen, he’s presumed guilty.
(iii) laxed clen detection standard for wada’s own labs. in fact, so laxed that the majority of the 35 wada labs would downright miss all 109 cases - no fuss, no problems, beautiful executive charts.

what is going on, why all the fuss now and never before 2010 ?

I see several theoretical answers:

- cow doping suddenly started in mexico and china in 2010
- the rest of the world can be presumed clean b/c all the dropped cases are limited to 2 countries only
- wada was blind before 2010 to the possibility of clen contamination in the 2 countries
- something isn’t right with the current wada rules when applied to the 2 counties

i know where my opinion is and i stated it consistently - the rules fell behind the newly learned reality and need tweaking…or wada has to change it's name to

WORLD (minus CHINA and MEXICO) ANTI-DOPING AGENCY.

what do you think ?

 

[Ferminal]

There seem to be far too many false positives for the rules governing clenbuterol to remain as they are.

Maybe once the Contador case (for or against, it doesn't matter) has been closed WADA will be able to reconsider their position and approach it with a clearer head than what they can now with a court date pending.

 

[Merckx index]

what is going on, why all the fuss now and never before 2010 ?

I see several theoretical answers:

- cow doping suddenly started in mexico and china in 2010

Obviously not. The fact that about half of this latest batch of athletes tested positive does suggest, though, that it might be worse in Mexico than the published studies suggest. The story reports most of the players tested at 50-300 pg/ml, which suggests more than 1 ug/kg in the meat. In a link I posted a while ago, a study found about 10% of the meat off the street in Mexico had a level this high. Unless the 100+ athletes all ate meat from the same source, or a few sources, this suggests that % could be higher.

The earlier soccer player case also is consistent with that possibility. One of the main reasons why I thought they were doping is because one of the players had a much higher level than the others. My understanding was they were all tested at the same time, which would mean that he either ate meat at a different time, or more contaminated meat. Either way, it would bring in a second contaminated meat sample into the equation. One contaminated sample is easy to believe in Mexico. Two different ones is a little harder to believe, unless the proportion of contaminated meat is quite high.

- the rest of the world can be presumed clean b/c all the dropped cases are limited to 2 countries only

That is still WADA's official position wrt Europe, according to the most recent story. So far, no indication that they will drop Bert's case. If they do, or if they clear him at the hearing, then the much bigger story will be that Spain has a very serious meat contamination problem that has evaded the testing procedures. Really, if that is the case, people should be much more concerned about that than Contador's fate.

- wada was blind before 2010 to the possibility of clen contamination in the 2 countries

I think there is some truth to that. Easy enough to do if you are using equipment that doesn't detect pg quantities.

- something isn’t right with the current wada rules when applied to the 2 counties

Obviously. WADA's last official statement on the problem was that CB should be addressed on a case-by-case basis. That now seems to translate to: if you ate meat in Mexico or China, you will probably get off. But let's also remember that both of these cases involved multiple athletes, IOW, they could point to others who ate meat at the same time and also tested positive. A lone athlete testing positive even in Mexico may have more problems.

So while recent events do indicate a new attitude of WADA towards CB, there are still two reasons why this could be bad news not good news for Bert:

1) WADA has not dismissed his case, indicating they continue to see Spain as very different from Mexico;
2) The Mexican dismissals were accompanied by public acknowledgement of a serious contamination problem in that country, with the word "poisoning" being used. I don't see how a similar dismissal of Bert's case could occur without making Spain look just as bad.

 

[Publicus]

I still think he won't walk away.
Mexico has a serious problem with clen - nothing new there.
Contadors serious problem is that he was caught in the EU and it is up to him to show how the clen got in to his system - I have seen nothing so far to show he has done that.

To be fair, if I remember correctly, NONE of the folks that have gotten off have shown how the clen got in their system.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

IOW, they could point to others who ate meat at the same time and also tested positive. A lone athlete testing positive even in Mexico may have more problems.

This is a good point. However, the testing is not as widespread in cycling. How many riders are tested after a stage. Moreover, every team has their own chef. I think a solitary incident is much more likely in pro cycling.

That said, I certainly think Contador has doped in his cycling career, but I'm inclined to believe he's walking, or at most getting a six-month ban starting at the end of July 2011.

 

[richwagmn]

Bertie was not in Mexico, or China, and he is not going to walk

But unlike say EPO, you CAN make the case that he COULD have ingested it in contaminated meat. All the rumors about markers from blood doping are just that. As far as I know, no hard evidence has been released.

I think you are right though. Given that they refused to set a floor for clen, they seem to be taking a hard line (which I think is silly, but most everything these clowns do makes no sense).

I have no idea what they'll end up doing. I don't think it'll be a two year ban. Can they just make a ban up? Say 6 months?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

To be fair, if I remember correctly, NONE of the folks that have gotten off have shown how the clen got in their system.

Of course they have - they all have, they ate contaminated meat in either China or Mexico.

Contador claims he ate meat in France, that it came from Spain and that they have a receipt to show this.
He has offered 'proof' that he ate meat from a country that does not have a problem with Clenbuterol like Mexico or Spain.

 

[python]

i doubt there is a single user who hasn't stated or repeated his/her opinion about contador doping and the duration of his ban but - back to my analysis described in the post above - does any one think wada rules about clen are messy ?

you test in cologne and you are a doper. same urine in paris or turkey and you walk.

you have a dinner on the same day in the same restaurant (nielsen vs colo) and one is an accursed doper and another a free man.

you go race and the dope collectors test you but not your mates who ate with you at the same table - you are a doper and they are not because it's apparently there is a rule (i failed to find in wada code) that you have to eat with your mates but they don't have to test them....

is the absurdity sinking ?

 

[Califootman]

From the WADA Guide to Parenting:

1. If your 10-year old son is walking down the sidewalk, and a large dog in a nearby backyard breaks off the chain it was tethered to, jumps over the fence, runs at your son and bites him... give the child a stern talking to and ground him for two weeks.

2. If your 10-year old son is walking down the sidewalk and sees a large dog barking in a nearby backyard, climbs over the fence with a "Beware of Dog" sign on it, walks right up to the growling dog and gets bitten... do not punish the child, for the dog was known to be dangerous.

I know the analogy isn't perfect, but it seems to me that WADA is in a difficult position when it essentially does not prosecute cases where there is a KNOWN hazard that they have WARNED athletes about.

Isn't FIFA also culpable in the above case? If they are going to hold a tournament (ESPECIALLY one for kids) in a country with a known food contamination/doping hazard, shouldn't they provide a means for ensuring the athletes get clean food? Or at least provide them guidance on what they can do to eliminate/minimize the risk of contamination? And if they HAVE provided such guidance... shouldn't the teams/athletes that didn't follow it be penalized for their negligence? I mean... if the HOME country is taking their athletes off meat in preparation for the tournament (information which I sincerely hope FIFA provided to all attending teams), don't you think every other country should have taken similar steps?

Sorry... some mostly rhetorical questions to chew on like a tough steak.

 

[python]

....
Sorry... some mostly rhetorical questions to chew on like a tough steak.

your rhetorical questions should be addressed to wada and no one else as it's wada that creates the rules every signatory MUST follow.

i gave 3 concrete example of absurdity the same rules and circumstances lead to. there are many more.

besides, wada disingenuously pretended they are not aware that clen contamination in china is an issue....get this....YET whilst german nada long ago ffs issued a black and white advisory note to german athletes - be ware of china and mexico.

it seems some wada politicians are either

-blockheads or
-blind or simply
-don't know how to read...

 

[fatandfast]

Since I don't know the difference in the delivery and the substance what makes buterol,albuterol, and chenbuterol different? It's used on humans and animals I do know that. I also have seen many American and Mexican racers use stuff like Ventolin throughout my time in racing. At least a 5 or 6 pros I know use the stuff , with a doctors prescription.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

From the WADA Guide to Parenting:

1. If your 10-year old son is walking down the sidewalk, and a large dog in a nearby backyard breaks off the chain it was tethered to, jumps over the fence, runs at your son and bites him... give the child a stern talking to and ground him for two weeks.

2. If your 10-year old son is walking down the sidewalk and sees a large dog barking in a nearby backyard, climbs over the fence with a "Beware of Dog" sign on it, walks right up to the growling dog and gets bitten... do not punish the child, for the dog was known to be dangerous.

I know the analogy isn't perfect, but it seems to me that WADA is in a difficult position when it essentially does not prosecute cases where there is a KNOWN hazard that they have WARNED athletes about.

Isn't FIFA also culpable in the above case? If they are going to hold a tournament (ESPECIALLY one for kids) in a country with a known food contamination/doping hazard, shouldn't they provide a means for ensuring the athletes get clean food? Or at least provide them guidance on what they can do to eliminate/minimize the risk of contamination? And if they HAVE provided such guidance... shouldn't the teams/athletes that didn't follow it be penalized for their negligence? I mean... if the HOME country is taking their athletes off meat in preparation for the tournament (information which I sincerely hope FIFA provided to all attending teams), don't you think every other country should have taken similar steps?

Sorry... some mostly rhetorical questions to chew on like a tough steak.

Don't take Pythons made up rules at face value - WADA have been quite clear on Clen positives, they will look at each instance in a case by case way.

As for Pythons point on 'strict liability' - well it can't be that strict when WADA have included 2 separate rules called "No fault or Negligence" and "No Significant Fault or Negligence".
Which is the key difference for Contador and the other cases.

 

[python]

To be fair, if I remember correctly, NONE of the folks that have gotten off have shown how the clen got in their system.

don't take dr maserati being misinformed as the fact.

contador's team never claimed they know exactly where the meat came from. they only claimed the reciet. they even at one point entertained the possibility that the meat could have been imported. their submittal to rfec certainly did not exclude the possibility of the foreign origin of the meat.

 

[python]

be specific doc, point to which rules i made up ?

 

[Polish]

http://espn.go.com/sports/soccer/news/_/id/7115036/clenbuterol-found-most-players-17-world-cup



Anyone still think Bertie won't walk away?

You can fail a clen test from eating it, and you can fail a clen test from using it as a PED.

The challenge for WADA is distinquishing between the two.
Case by case. Discourage use as a PED.

Sometimes it seems obvious - like in the story you linked.
But we can not excuse everyone now can we?
Let the PED users off the hook?

Look, it is entirely possible a rest day blood bag's contents were contaminated by beef eaten shortly before blood was extracted.
But it is also possible that the blood was contaminated by using clen to fight allergies and lose weight.

Case by case.
Team full of mates all failing a clen test after a gorging on mexican chimichongas.
An allergy prone weight weenie pro cyclist failing a rest day drug test.
Case by case.

I think this goes to show something we have all known for quite a while:
Alberto has a lot to learn.
He should have backdated a TUE for the clen.
Maybe toss in a bribe of half a mill.
Live and learn. bang bang.
And of course, Alberto would have won anyway.
PEDs did NOT make the difference.
Cheating by attacking dropped-chain-Andy won the race.
39 seconds.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

be specific doc, point to which rules i made up ?

You wrote that points (i), (ii), (iii) are part of their "crispy clear regulations".

<snipped to point>
this is the 3d news within a week or two when wada said it will not pursue doping. all despite it’s own crispy clear regulations (confirmed for 2012):

(i) absolute zero tolerance for clen - not a molecule is allowed
(ii) unwavering adherence to the principle of strict liability, which essentially means unless an athlete can produce a meat sample with clen, he’s presumed guilty.
(iii) laxed clen detection standard for wada’s own labs. in fact, so laxed that the majority of the 35 wada labs would downright miss all 109 cases - no fuss, no problems, beautiful executive charts.

Unless they are quotes from the WADA code than you made it up to suit your arguement.

 

[Merckx index]

you test in cologne and you are a doper. same urine in paris or turkey and you walk.

Yes, it would be nice to have the same level of detection everywhere. But maybe financial conditions make that difficult, not all labs can afford the latest in technology. To put it in perspective, it’s something like a speeder being caught on one highway because there is a cop and a radar gun at that place, while another speeder doesn’t get caught on another road where there is no cop. I’m very willing to believe riders other than Bert might have tested positive if their samples had gone to Germany, and this is something that needs to be addressed (if CB use is common, there seems to be a lot of disagreement about that). But that fact doesn’t absolve Bert.

IOW, the problem--so far--is there may be a lot of false negatives--hardly something new in the doping world--not false positives. IIRC, Catlin's LA lab uses a different standard for the isotope T test than the French lab used for Landis. So uneven standards are not confined to CB, though probably this is the worst example. In practice, what it means is that the lab that analyzes your samples determines how many days after you stop taking CB you can still be detected.

you have a dinner on the same day in the same restaurant (nielsen vs colo) and one is an accursed doper and another a free man.

Definitely there was unfairness here, but Colo was technically not treated as a doper. He was treated as someone who got careless. He got the 1 year penalty for no significant fault, which could only be given if CONI bought his story that he ate contaminated meat. The unfairness is treating two virtually identical cases as no fault in one case and no significant fault in the other (as Mas post alludes to).

you go race and the dope collectors test you but not your mates who ate with you at the same table - you are a doper and they are not because it's apparently there is a rule (i failed to find in wada code) that you have to eat with your mates but they don't have to test them....

They are not tested, obviously, because they did not finish in some position that WADA rules specify being tested. I don’t think anyone had a notion of getting everyone at the dinner table tested until it was realized that none of Bert’s teammates could serve to back up his story.

I know the analogy isn't perfect, but it seems to me that WADA is in a difficult position when it essentially does not prosecute cases where there is a KNOWN hazard that they have WARNED athletes about.

I think this is a good point. At some point, WADA has to say, it’s not safe to eat meat in this country, if you test positive and make that excuse, you will get one year for no significant fault. But we are in a transition period, where rules are in flux, and inconsistencies are inevitable.

contador's team never claimed they know exactly where the meat came from. they even at one point entertained the possibility that the meat could have been imported. their submittable to rfec certainly did not exclude the possibility of the foregn origin of the meat.

As has been discussed “to death” here before, foreign meat imported into Spain is subjected to the same inspection criteria as domestic meat. So the domestic/foreign distinction doesn’t change the situation.

it seems some wada politicians are either

-blockheads or
-blind or simply
-don't know how to read...

Ah, now, we shouldn’t criticize people who have more information than we do. It makes us look like pseudo-politicians. Better to let WADA in its wisdom sort all this out.

But since we all do carp here, I'll say that while I agreed with the WADA decision not to establish a threshold, at least not this time around, I think they should have made a stronger statement acknowledging the problem in certain countries. In line with what that other poster said, they could have warned athletes either to avoid eating meat in those places, or at least to take precautions that would allow them to validate their claim of contaminated meat. I don't think this is a permanent solution to the problem, but a quick-fix that would at least help.

 

[python]

all above is pretty irrelevant.

the examples given remain valid and they are based on the same wada rules that wada refuses to amend.

both colo and nielsen tested on the same day and ate contaminated meat in the same restaurant in mexico.

one is free another is punished on the basis of the same wada rules.

not seeing the inadequacy of the situation is an example of wada rules problem is lame.