A cleaner Giro?

[drfunk000]

The riders seem to be climbing noticibly slower in this Giro.

2010 Plan de Corones - after a rest day
1 Stefano Garzelli (Ita) Acqua & Sapone 0:41:28 (good for 7th, 2008)
2 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 0:00:42 (good for 8th, 2008)
3 John Gadret (Fra) AG2R La Mondiale 0:00:54 (outside top 10)
4 Vincenzo Nibali (Ita) Liquigas-Doimo 0:01:01
5 Michele Scarponi (Ita) Androni Giocattoli 0:01:07
6 Ivan Basso (Ita) Liquigas-Doimo 0:01:10
7 Rigoberto Uran Uran (Col) Caisse d'Epargne 0:01:36
8 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Astana 0:01:37
9 Dario Cataldo (Ita) Quick Step 0:01:41
10 Evgeni Petrov (Rus) Team Katusha 0:01:46

2008 Plan de Corones - after back to back mountaintop finishes
1 Franco Pellizotti (Ita) Liquigas 40.26 (19.142 km/h) (irregular blood values)
2 Emanuele Sella (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 0.06 (CERA positive)
3 Gilberto Simoni (Ita) Serramenti PVC Diquigiovanni-Androni 0.17
4 Alberto Contador Velasco (Spa) Astana 0.22
5 Riccardo Riccò (Ita) Saunier Duval - Scott 0.30 (EPO positive)
6 José Rujano Guillen (Ven) Caisse d'Epargne 0.49
7 Marzio Bruseghin (Ita) Lampre 1.04
8 Domenico Pozzovivo (Ita) CSF Group Navigare 1.43
9 Danilo Di Luca (Ita) LPR Brakes 1.45 (CERA)
10 Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank 1.49

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Must admit I thought they'd go a bit faster than they did today. Jens Voigt 2008 would have been on the podium today if you take the times literally

I do think this year's race has been exceptionally hard and I'm also not convinced the rest day actually helps

 

[drfunk000]

2008 was harder than 2010

“It’s a stupid race – I don’t like it! We are at a ski area! Leave it to the mountain bikers!” said an angry Voigt. “I don’t want to sound like an old grand-mother, because I know cycling is hard. But this Giro is too much. It’s like a machine that missing some oil and needs a tune-up. With a few small details, it would be so sweet. But today, for 45 minutes of racing, I have to miss an entire day. And tomorrow is four-hour transfer. Where is the time for recovery?”

“They want us to ride clean? After this Giro ends, I am going to give a present of a bicycle to (Angelo) Zomegnan and tell him to ride this Giro and make all the transfers that they’ve put us through,” said an annoyed Enrico Gasparotto (Barloworld). “This Giro is too hard. Last year, I worked my *** off for Di Luca, but now I am even more tired as a protected rider. Every day has climbs, summit finishes, small roads, crashes, nerves. Even if there is one flat section, they would take us through a small village with tiny roads or make us climb a wall just to make for a good show.”

“This race is just insane!” said Slipstream’s David Millar as he climbed into a cable car to take him down the mountain. “Taken individually it’s a good idea, but on a total, it’s not a good thing after the two mental days we’ve just had and the two hard weeks we’ve had before that. This race is just ridiculous.”

Read more: http://velonews.competitor.com/2008/05/road/plan-de-corones-gimmick-or-epic_76720#ixzz0oxjEhQJI

 

[la.margna]

One one hand, the gravel road was in a much better condition today than in 2008 and the race conditions less demanding, friendlier. On the other hand, this year's two weeks before the TT were probably significantly more forece consuming for the riders. Maybe another factor that in 2008, the rest day was after (if I remember correctly), so a rider would probably go and give everything, while tomorrow we have another stage with climbs.

One has not to forget that in spring 2008, the peloton was probably full on CERA which at that time was assumed not to be traceable (btw, what happened to this 2008 Giro probes that they wanted to retest later on?).

Although we are talking about a difference of about 2% to 3%, it is very hard to draw any conclusion from today's figures, but I guess it is at least an indication that it hasn't got worse.

 

[luckyboy]

Scarponi has had a great Giro so far.

 

[Frosty]

One one hand, the gravel road was in a much better condition today than in 2008 and the race conditions less demanding, friendlier. On the other hand, this year's two weeks before the TT were probably significantly more forece consuming for the riders. Maybe another factor that in 2008, the rest day was after (if I remember correctly), so a rider would probably go and give everything, while tomorrow we have another stage with climbs.

Yeah, i was wondering whether riders would give it absolutely 100% today or just leave a bit in the tank. However, if this was a factor then maybe the times up the Zoncolan should have been faster? Its a complex issue.

I agree about the Giro 08 retests by the way...

 

[ergmonkey]

Scarponi has had a great Giro so far.

I'm not quite sure what was meant by this post. Scarponi is a convicted (and confessed) doper. He's also an exceptionally talented rider. Much like with Ivan Basso, the mere fact that he's riding well doesn't prove anything one way or another about doping. Admittedly, if Scarponi were pummelling Basso and Evans (two ostensibly more talented riders), then Scarponi's performances would be suspicious. But, riding steadily in the top 5-10 in a season highlight which contains no Schlecks, Contador, Armstrong, Valverde, et. al. is hardly earth-shattering.

If the field really is cleaning up, then good results from Scarponi are plausible. If the field isn't cleaning up, then it would be fair to say that Scarponi hasn't forgotten what Manolo Saiz taught him about race preparation.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I think they key phrase is cleaner. That I'd agree with. The times, splits, attacks, all reflect that.

Cleaner doesn't mean completely clean, like Pat would have us believe. I'm not that naive.

As to Scarponi, at least he admitted it.

 

[Vonn Brinkman]

It's not cleaner.
just because they ride slower on average does not indicate that the peloton is cleaner. Maybe they are less heavily juiced, but still juiced. I think the performances of Scarponi, garzelli, basso, have been very great, but still they are on the dope. If you like it or not, it is simply the way of cycling.
Not that I don't like it. This Giro has been a fantastic race to watch!

 

[Ashtabula]

This thread goes a way towards answering the slightly different question I posed in the Stage 16 thread: why did the TT'ers do relatively poorer this time than last?

Still somewhat curious, though. If everyone is a bit slower, I agree one reason may well be a cleaner field. But the course was more demanding last time, which I wouldn't think would help TT'ers at all. So the relatively poorer showing from TT specialists still needs explanation.

 

[BroDeal]

Hmmm, Garzelli's gap over the others really sticks out. He killed everyone. Take him out and the best time is 1:44 down on Pellizotti.. It is also interesting that there is not a single rider in both top tens.

It might be interesting to go to analytic cycling, punch in the length and average grade of the climb, the weight of an average rider, and see the difference in watts.

 

[red_explosions]

Real test for me is how close they get to Pantani's time for the Mortirolo. Given Pantani was at the top of his form and almost certainly jacked to the max, anything within a couple minutes would leave serious questions.

 

[Big Doopie]

... i may be a heretic for saying this, but has anyone noticed how sastre's performances have gone ever since they announced that they were going to retest the 2008 tour samples again sometime after the giro last year? while nothing was found, sastre has been but a shell of the guy who shot up l'alpe. scared straight?

it always boggled my mind that some think this guy has always been clean.

 

[Zoncolan]

... i may be a heretic for saying this, but has anyone noticed how sastre's performances have gone ever since they announced that they were going to retest the 2008 Tour samples again sometime after the giro last year? while nothing was found, sastre has been but a shell of the guy who shot up l'alpe since.

it always boggled my mind that some think this guy has always been clean.

Have you watched the Giro last year? He won two MTF stages. He shot up Vesuvius and another mountain the same way he did up Alpe d' Huez.

 

[Big Doopie]

Have you watched the Giro last year? He won two MTF stages. He shot up Vesuvius and another mountain the same way he did up Alpe d' Huez.

um...reread my post. i believe the announcement for and the retesting itself took place after the giro 2009. after that (tour 2009 and giro 2010) sastre has been a shell of his previous self (tour 2008 and giro 2009).

cheers.

 

[Zoncolan]

um...reread my post. i believe the announcement for and the retesting itself took place after the giro 2009. after that (tour 2009 and giro 2010) sastre has been a shell of his previous self (tour 2008 and giro 2009).

cheers.

OK. Didn't think about the timing. Mind immediately went back to '08
You have a good point then.
Cheers

 

[drfunk000]

Hmmm, Garzelli's gap over the others really sticks out. He killed everyone. Take him out and the best time is 1:44 down on Pellizotti.. It is also interesting that there is not a single rider in both top tens.

It might be interesting to go to analytic cycling, punch in the length and average grade of the climb, the weight of an average rider, and see the difference in watts.

Garzelli is also 30min+ down on GC. The saving energy argument might work for Garzelli.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

It's not cleaner... Maybe they are less heavily juiced, but still juiced.

Isn't that the same as cleaner?

 

[Escarabajo]

It's not cleaner.
just because they ride slower on average does not indicate that the peloton is cleaner. Maybe they are less heavily juiced, but still juiced. I think the performances of Scarponi, garzelli, basso, have been very great, but still they are on the dope. If you like it or not, it is simply the way of cycling.
Not that I don't like it. This Giro has been a fantastic race to watch!

Less Dope = Cleaner ????

Note: I just noticed that Alpe beat me to it.

 

[maltiv]

It's not cleaner.
just because they ride slower on average does not indicate that the peloton is cleaner. Maybe they are less heavily juiced, but still juiced. I think the performances of Scarponi, garzelli, basso, have been very great, but still they are on the dope. If you like it or not, it is simply the way of cycling.
Not that I don't like it. This Giro has been a fantastic race to watch!

Well as long as they are doping less than before, it means that the gap between the dopers and the clean ones (whoever they are), should be smaller than before. Which definitely is a step in the right direction.

 

[issoisso]

I think they key phrase is cleaner. That I'd agree with. The times, splits, attacks, all reflect that.

Cleaner doesn't mean completely clean, like Pat would have us believe. I'm not that naive.

As to Scarponi, at least he admitted it.

This.

I went through the top 80 or so finishers to see who had improved (I didn't consider cases of a 2 or 3 second improvement).
Besides Nibali, who by his own admission was off form in 2008 and building for the Tour, the other guys were.

Marco Pinotti, Damien Monier, Bradley Wiggins, Stephen Cummings and Julian Dean.

Enlightening, no?

 

[Ashtabula]

Marco Pinotti, Damien Monier, Bradley Wiggins, Stephen Cummings and Julian Dean.

Enlightening, no?

I don't follow the inference. Relatively cleaner improves the chances of these guys? Why them? 5 different teams.

 

[issoisso]

I don't follow the inference. Relatively cleaner improves the chances of these guys? Why them? 5 different teams.

Ask me to name the clean guys in the top 80 who did both the 2008 and 2010 Plan de Corones TTs and I would name these 5 guys and no one else.

It's not about the team. As the Cofidis crap back in early 2007 proved, it's about the individual riders.


(4 teams, BTW)

 

[Anonymous]

Scarponi has had a great Giro so far.

I actually laughed out loud.

 

[Ashtabula]

Ask me to name the clean guys in the top 80 who did both the 2008 and 2010 Plan de Corones TTs and I would name these 5 guys and no one else.

...

My only source for who might be clean and who's under suspicion is these forums. I've never seen any suspicion attached to most of these guys, here, but that would be true of a hundred other guys as well. Your confident inclusion of Wiggins is what threw me off, because his results, particularly as a climber in 2009, have been often questioned.

You may be right, but it wouldn't be obvious.