Are Saxo the most tactically inept team in the peloton?

[Mrs John Murphy]

They make T-Mob under Godefroot seem like tactical geniuses. Riis and his munchkins are the reason why the Schlecks will never win a GT.

With the talent that Saxo/CSC has had at its disposal over the years: Basso, Schlecks, Sastre, Hamilton, Jalabert, etc the team has 2006 Giro win when Basso was higher than Pete Doherty, and a TDF win when Sastre ignored team orders and attacked on his own. The majority of their one day wins have been thanks to Spartacus...

Today was just another example of their tactical incompetence - three riders in the lead group and they came away with nothing. They failed to even weed out the Gerishack riders who were Cadelling it up the mountain.

No wonder they are struggling to get a sponsor. My proviso as a sponsor would be booting Riis from the team first and foremost.

 

[L'arriviste]

Isn't it just pre-Tour priorities though? It seems like all their protected riders are sort of freewheeling. They have won a lot this year with Robofab, Lux and a Giro stage to name some off the top of my bonce, so I reckon Riis isn't bricking it yet.

I won't disagree with you too much though, because if I did I'd get my head bitten off.

Sky must also be up there, having duffed out of so many leadouts. Perhaps HTC a bit too because there's too much focus on one or two guys, unlike last year where the train was infallible and everyone else grabbed their own virtuoso wins.

 

[hrotha]

I absolutely agree. The worst thing is that it doesn't look like the Schlecks know how to improvise or act independently.

If I were their DS, I think I'd make it so that the only race they ride together would be the Luxembourgish championship.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

The Schlecks would benefit from the brilliant tactical guidance of one George Hincapie.

Listen to what he says, then do the opposite.

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Look at it this way - Saxo under Riis's wise leadership have focused the Schleck's entirely on the TDF - and have nothing to show for it. Not sent them to the Vuelta or the Giro separately as team leaders - all the eggs have been in the TDF basket.

It isn't even as if they are a one man team - they have had one of the strongest teams in the TDF year in year out in terms of domestiques, and yet for 10 years they have 1 TDF win - and as I said - that was because Sastre ignored Riis and attacked.

At least Rabo, Caisse, Leaky etc have managed to win Giro's, Vuelta's etc even if they have not really come close in the TDF. I don't get Saxo's in race tactics, nor do I really get their 'season strategy'.

I watched today and I had no idea what they were trying to achieve.

 

[TRDean]

Thats pretty tough...didn't Frank just win the other day?? This is pre-tour prep. There are plenty of other teams that would trade with Saxo's results this season...that is sure.

 

[hrotha]

Thats pretty tough...didn't Frank just win the other day?? This is pre-tour prep. There are plenty of other teams that would trade with Saxo's results this season...that is sure.

Problem with that is their tactics are usually awful at the Tour.

 

[TRDean]

Problem with that is their tactics are usually awful at the Tour.

How so? Did anyone do better than Andy last tour (other than Contador)?

 

[L'arriviste]

Problem with that is their tactics are usually awful at the Tour.

That's true, actually, but I also question the strength. I never for a single moment felt like A Schleck had it in him to beat Contador. He just wasn't all that.

One trick pony in operation again today, like at Amstel Gold. If Andy fails, send Frank up the road and if it works, make out it was supposed to be that way.

 

[hrotha]

How so? Did anyone do better than Andy last tour (other than Contador)?

Oh, don't confuse having the 2nd strongest rider in the Tour with doing well tactically.

They had both Schlecks and a team packed full of great domestiques. Why did they do to challenge an apparently divided Astana? That's right, nothing. Wait for the final kilometers and have Andy duck it out with someone who was superior to him on a one-on-one basis.

It's not just last year, anyway. They have a long history of this.

 

[Magnus]

I disagree.

Didn't watch today's stage but based on the results Saxo had one rider in the lead group.

In general Riis have made a team that have dominated the sport on a mediocre budget.

But if your logic is that every race they loose is because of bad tactics and every race they win is in despite of the tactics it's no wonder you derive the headline of this topic.

I think Saxo showed strong tactics in the cobbled classics this year (where Riis actually was in the team car).

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

To be fair - most of their results this season have been down to Spartacus. He perhaps has the physical ability to defeat Riis's tactics.

If we are talking about spring performance - what about the complete lack of success in Amstel, Fleche and LBL where again, they appeared to have no tactical idea when using the Schlecks.

Even if it was training today and they are not interested in the GC I really don't get what they were trying to do. Send Andy up the road for a bit but not really hard, get reeled back in without too much hassle. Send Frank but don't get anywhere. A select group forms but they do nothing with it. They have Andy, Frank and Fuglsang in the group but come away with nothing.

 

[L'arriviste]

To be fair - most of their results this season have been down to Spartacus. He perhaps has the physical ability to defeat Riis's tactics.

If we are talking about spring performance - what about the complete lack of success in Amstel, Fleche and LBL where again, they appeared to have no tactical idea when using the Schlecks.

Even if it was training today and they are not interested in the GC I really don't get what they were trying to do. Send Andy up the road for a bit but not really hard, get reeled back in without too much hassle. Send Frank but don't get anywhere. A select group forms but they do nothing with it. They have Andy, Frank and Fuglsang in the group but come away with nothing.

Maybe the Siamese thing with those two doesn't work. It's not really in the playbook, is it? Like the Williams sisters in battyball - you often get a crap match.

 

[TRDean]

I disagree.

Didn't watch today's stage but based on the results Saxo had one rider in the lead group.

In general Riis have made a team that have dominated the sport on a mediocre budget.

But if your logic is that every race they loose is because of bad tactics and every race they win is in despite of the tactics it's no wonder you derive the headline of this topic.

I think Saxo showed strong tactics in the cobbled classics this year (where Riis actually was in the team car).

I agree with this!! So Sparticus only wins despite of the team? Bull crap! This just in..the other teams and riders are paid to race too!

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

Well for some reason Riis seems to spend most of his time trying to protect Frank - for example calling Andy back in last years TDF, they are constantly trying to tee things up for Frank (when Andy looks to have the better prospects) and failing.

 

[Delicato]

Oh, don't confuse having the 2nd strongest rider in the Tour with doing well tactically.

They had both Schlecks and a team packed full of great domestiques. Why did they do to challenge an apparently divided Astana? That's right, nothing. Wait for the final kilometers and have Andy duck it out with someone who was superior to him on a one-on-one basis.

It's not just last year, anyway. They have a long history of this.

Who made the selection on Verbier? Who started attacks on stage with two St.Bernards? Who attacked on attacked on Grand Bornard stage, forcing Wiggo and Lance lose more than 2 and a half minutes? They did everything they could.

It just wasn't impossible to beat Contador. Even if they had Pantani in their team, or Armstrong of 2001 or 2002, the result would be the same.

Astana was divided, but their domestiques like Muravyev or Rast were excellent.

And the parcours of 2009 TDF were rubbish. I am sure that in this year Saxo will make race as hard as possible for Contador.

 

[Magnus]

He perhaps has the physical ability to defeat Riis's tactics.

If that's your opinion there's really not much to discuss is there?

I think he used an injured Matti Breschel brilliantly to have Boonen set up Fabian's attack in P-R.

You could also take a look at the L-B-L 2009.

Anyway: in general I think there's very little you can do with tactics in a road race. It's usually pretty clear what to do and what not to do.

Riis is in love with TdF and the seasonal priorities shows this.

 

[Magnus]

Well for some reason Riis seems to spend most of his time trying to protect Frank - for example calling Andy back in last years TDF, they are constantly trying to tee things up for Frank (when Andy looks to have the better prospects) and failing.

I suppose you're talking about the Ventoux stage. If so: Andy called Andy back Riis didn't.

 

[theyoungest]

Today's tactics weren't that bad... they sent Andy up ahead, to make the Shacks chase, and when the gap was closed down Frank or Fuglsang could have attacked. Problem is, there was a stronger rider with Andy.

 

[nvpacchi]

You could also take a look at the L-B-L 2009.

Was just going to mention this. Amstel Gold that year too, putting Kroon in the final selection with Ivanov and Gesink.

 

[Epicycle]

The last time I remember people grumbling about this was in the days before Sastre attacked on the Alpe to win the Tour. I know there was some friction in that team but still....

 

[hrotha]

Who made the selection on Verbier? Who started attacks on stage with two St.Bernards? Who attacked on attacked on Grand Bornard stage, forcing Wiggo and Lance lose more than 2 and a half minutes? They did everything they could.

It just wasn't impossible to beat Contador. Even if they had Pantani in their team, or Armstrong of 2001 or 2002, the result would be the same.

Astana was divided, but their domestiques like Muravyev or Rast were excellent.

And the parcours of 2009 TDF were rubbish. I am sure that in this year Saxo will make race as hard as possible for Contador.

Usually they made the selection, then stop because they didn't want to risk sending either Schleck too far from the finish line. As a result, their efforts pacing the pack contributed zilch. Wiggo and Lance were of no concern for anything other than a spot on the podium - which I guess is fine but I think Saxo should aim a little higher than that.

They didn't do everything they could. They tried the same tactic time and time again, always with frontal attacks that were doomed because Contador was simply superior.

Astana's domestiques weren't even put to the test seriously.

 

[Delicato]

Can you tell me about some possible scenarios of the attacks? (which wouldn't be doomed since wouldn't be frontal )

 

[Mrs John Murphy]

If that's your opinion there's really not much to discuss is there?

I think he used an injured Matti Breschel brilliantly to have Boonen set up Fabian's attack in P-R.

You could also take a look at the L-B-L 2009.

Anyway: in general I think there's very little you can do with tactics in a road race. It's usually pretty clear what to do and what not to do.

Riis is in love with TdF and the seasonal priorities shows this.

Well it is a discussion forum and people have differing opinions.

As I say, I watched today and had no idea what Saxo were playing at. I watched them in the FW, Amstel and LBL and had no idea what they were doing.

This is a team that has some of the best domestiques in the peloton, domestiques that the likes of Evans would kill for, and yet they have achieved very little in GT's despite that strength.

They get is occasionally like at LBL in 2009 but more often than not - the get it wrong. Riis and his team are far far too conservative and too worried about Frank.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually they arent..

This man is..

but youve got to love his tactical ineptitude