Astana team's mess

[Konfronto]

Taking into account all the scandals, including the recent ones, do you guys believe that the team Astana can be considered as the team where promising riders can prosper and where they are not wasting their talents? Is it better not to mess with the team at all? The main question do you think that the team is an example of professionalism in all respects? Can Astana be considered as a professional team?

P.S. I personally love the team, but I am sick and tired witnessing the whole awful story that goes around the squad.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

You better don't mess with Vino I believe. + the Kireyev situation is straaaaange

 

[LukeSchmid]

Astana are dodgy but probably not as dodgy as the UCI. The stink starts at the top a descends down.

 

[Fetisoff]

Blame the points system that we got in place.

Astana haven't had the great year, they know that they have to get in on the sporting criteria to get the ProTour license next year, otherwise they won't get it.

Now who's got more points the last 2 years? Vino or Kireev?

As unfortunate as this situation might be, it's pure business, nothing personal.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Blame the points system that we got in place.

Astana haven't had the great year, they know that they have to get in on the sporting criteria to get the ProTour license next year, otherwise they won't get it.

Now who's got more points the last 2 years? Vino or Kireev?

As unfortunate as this situation might be, it's pure business, nothing personal.

 

[Fetisoff]

Exactly.
Now someone's gotta photoshop Vino's hear on the Godfather's

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Vino rides the Tour Down Under next year, then retires for good, moves upstairs into the DS role, Kireyev comes out of retirement and they wait maybe a month or two before signing him in mid-March, ready to plug him into races like Catalunya.

 

[Anonymous]

Exactly.
Now someone's gotta photoshop Vino's hear on the Godfather's

in the book didnt vito think lightning striking a man was personal.iirc michael was talking about it when the hit on sollozzo was in motion. I might be mistaken, the last time i read it was 9 yrs ago

 

[Konfronto]

I was really quite happy to welcome Kash as a "new" rider of Astana. I think he will be an asset for the team but a bit later, when he gets more essential practise.

However delegating him a role of the leader straight after his reconnection was a bit too much from the management of the team. Now we can see that this was irrelevant. He said that he could make a top 5 at the Vuelta 2011, well that bold statement proved to be wrong. He hasn't had a decent season this year prior to the grand tour. Not only did he show any reasonable progress so far after his come back, but he also failed to cross the finish line at some races this season at all. So why then the management rushed the signing of the rider and got everything messed up? They just could postpone it until the next year and the young rider Kireyev probably wouldn't be a scapegoat of the situation ( exceeding the limit of riders).
All those previous scandals, sudden abandon of the team by Contador, absence of new really decent contracts can be understood now. It seems like the old statement is relevant here: big money, big problems.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

in the book didnt vito think lightning striking a man was personal.iirc michael was talking about it when the hit on sollozzo was in motion. I might be mistaken, the last time i read it was 9 yrs ago

"Tom, don't let anybody kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of **** every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell. You know where I learned that from? The Don. My old man. The Godfather. If a bolt of lightning hit a friend of his the old man would take it personal. He took my going into the Marines personal. That's what makes him great. The Great Don. He takes everything personal Like God. He knows every feather that falls from the tail of a sparrow or however the hell it goes? Right? And you know something? Accidents don't happen to people who take accidents as a personal insult."

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The poll is disingenuous. You could quite feasibly argue that Astana have been behaving unprofessionally; but you could argue that the problem has been a case of too much professionalism, i.e. everything has been done for careerist reasons, not enough spirit and common sense.

Astana have behaved in a very professional sense - in the same way as a particularly blatant foul in football is called a "professional foul" - because the person knows they're doing something wrong, but they're deliberately breaking the rules for their team's benefit. They're doing it because they're professionals, so the sense of losing to the better man is overridden by the sense of not losing full stop. The job is to win, they're going about the job in a professional manner.

Astana are only doing the same thing - being prepared to compromise the rulebook in order to complete their job as intended.

 

[Anonymous]

"Tom, don't let anybody kid you. It's all personal, every bit of business. Every piece of **** every man has to eat every day of his life is personal. They call it business. OK. But it's personal as hell. You know where I learned that from? The Don. My old man. The Godfather. If a bolt of lightning hit a friend of his the old man would take it personal. He took my going into the Marines personal. That's what makes him great. The Great Don. He takes everything personal Like God. He knows every feather that falls from the tail of a sparrow or however the hell it goes? Right? And you know something? Accidents don't happen to people who take accidents as a personal insult."

Thank you.

 

[bicing]

Astana is a pure professional team because Vino decides what pure and professional in cycling is.

 

[Konfronto]

The poll is disingenuous. You could quite feasibly argue that Astana have been behaving unprofessionally; but you could argue that the problem has been a case of too much professionalism, i.e. everything has been done for careerist reasons, not enough spirit and common sense.

Astana have behaved in a very professional sense - in the same way as a particularly blatant foul in football is called a "professional foul" - because the person knows they're doing something wrong, but they're deliberately breaking the rules for their team's benefit. They're doing it because they're professionals, so the sense of losing to the better man is overridden by the sense of not losing full stop. The job is to win, they're going about the job in a professional manner.

Astana are only doing the same thing - being prepared to compromise the rulebook in order to complete their job as intended.

Agreed, but had they not signed Kash for THIS season, the problem would not appeared. Unfortunately Kashechkin has not brought any points for the team, so what was the reason for such a quick transfer of the rider? Was it prudent? How on earth could the management avoid the fact, that Vino de jure was/is part of the team and by signing Kash for THIS year the team will face a problem with UCI rules (maximum limit of riders)?
I think for the team with a budget of around 15mln euro, for the team with a prefix Pro Team in its name, those omissions are signs of unprofessionalism of the management, not riders of course.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Agreed, but had they not signed Kash for THIS season, the problem would not appeared. Unfortunately Kashechkin has not brought any points for the team, so what was the reason for such a quick transfer of the rider? Was it prudent? How on earth could the management avoid the fact, that Vino de jure was/is part of the team and by signing Kash for THIS year the team will face a problem with UCI rules (maximum limit of riders)?
I think for the team with a budget of around 15mln euro, for the team with a prefix Pro Team in its name, those omissions are signs of unprofessionalism of the management, not riders of course.

It wasn't prudent perhaps, but it was considered necessary given the loss of Vino and the poor form of Kreuziger; the team had little in the way of options for the Vuelta. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think that the signing of Kashechkin was a hasty, hurried heart-over-head move, but then when transfers started being bandied about and teams that had not gained so many points, such as Quick Step and Skil-Shimano, plus of course the new GreenEdge team, suddenly picked up riders, suddenly they probably felt they needed Vino's points. They needed Vino back, and Vino couldn't stay away from racing for long because you can't attack on training rides, so then bringing Vino back was of mutual benefit. Then the roster space becomes a secondary concern that can be sorted when we get there (probably in the form of asking someone who's been injured like Kireyev, or closing in on retirement like Mizourov, to take the fall).

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

The only thing unprofessional about Astana is that they seem to have very little in the way of results for their 15 million euro.

 

[Konfronto]

The only thing unprofessional about Astana is that they seem to have very little in the way of results for their 15 million euro.

True, with the budget of that scale the whole story is pitty

 

[plooton]

Not sure this is the spot on queston here. Kaschechkyn matter is of small importance itself. But as I see it, the problem may be the way of dealing with and communication among certain Astana representatives/sides - the role and powers ( or taking over powers) between Makkhmetov and Vino (and many things related and derived). Personally I sides with Vino, becouse he's much closer to cycling itself so he should know more of things like how to form and "refine" the squod.

PS: If sb. of you have more detailed info. about the "case" please put it here

 

[icefire]

The only thing unprofessional about Astana is that they seem to have very little in the way of results for their 15 million euro.

It's a bit like Katusha insisting in going to the Tour with a sort of all-Russian roster. Katusha's best results in these 2 seasons are coming from their Spanish subsidiary. If you build a team around the idea of national pride but you lack national talent and you are unlucky with imported talent, shit happens.

 

[canyonball]

Astana certainly has responsibility on this, but what about the organization who was supposed to regulate. From what I understand they acepted the signing of Kascheskin, even though Astana already had a full roster? (yes Vino had a crash and everybody assumed he was retiring, but he was still part of the team. A clarification should have been issued to the team before this mess.

Not that it would change anything. In the end of the day someone would make room for vino and kash. It's just that now it all seems like mafia business and only the sport comes bad out of this.

 

[jacko_69]

Exactly.
Now someone's gotta photoshop Vino's hear on the Godfather's

Here ya go

 

[Michielveedeebee]

Astana certainly has responsibility on this, but what about the organization who was supposed to regulate. From what I understand they acepted the signing of Kascheskin, even though Astana already had a full roster? (yes Vino had a crash and everybody assumed he was retiring, but he was still part of the team. A clarification should have been issued to the team before this mess.

Not that it would change anything. In the end of the day someone would make room for vino and kash. It's just that now it all seems like mafia business and only the sport comes bad out of this.

it won't imo, only the hardcorefans (aka forumites) or people who really follow cycling will know about this. Most other more casual fans (Tour and Classics fans) won't even hear about it.

 

[Konfronto]

Here ya go

Freaking epic!

 

[jens_attacks]

don vino corleone!

last picture with kireyev

 

[PCutter]

Given the UCI apparently takes 'administration' into account when awarding WT status, you'd think an inability to count to 28 would fail that test