Best developers of talent

[craig1985]

This thread was created after I've read (and so has everybody else) on how good French cyclists are at juniors and u/23 level, but turn pro, and don't kick on, or improve a little, and somehow fluke a Tour de France stage win and dine off it forever (hello Sylvain Calzati), and Ryo blasting Marc Madiot for burning up young riders, whereas somebody like Philippe Gilbert was of the opinion that turning pro for FDJ was the best thing for him. But it isn't just restricted to French teams as well, the Velits twins complained that they got SFA in terms of help from Milram, and really stagnated in their time there, and now Peter is having a great ride at the Vuelta (either that, or it's Clinic related matters). Bruyneel never liked to give his young riders a heavy racing programme, I think he said he liked to give them 25-30 days of racing in a year, and rarely sent them to a Grand Tour (before they got on the juice).

So in your opinion are the best teams and DS's at developing young riders, and taking them to the next level? Eusebio Unzué has a very good reputation for developing young riders, and I think JV is pretty good as well, and doesn't seem to put a lot of pressure on them succeed straight away, rather to get used to racing at a higher level. I would say HTC is pretty good at developing riders, but then they are usually just made to do lead out if Cav is riding. I think Sicard has a good home at Euskaltel, they haven't made him do the Tour or the Vuelta this year, and finally Igor Anton is showing us what he is capable of doing, albeit if he stopped crashing.

 

[joy118118]

Everyone says JV does good on developing talents. But I cant see he is better than Liquigas or CdE . Why do you put him on the first place? Or Garmin has something special that I missed?

 

[Kwibus]

Everyone says JV does good on developing talents. But I cant see he is better than Liquigas or CdE . Why do you put him on the first place? Or Garmin has something special that I missed?

Where did he put him on first place?

 

[joy118118]

not say craig1985. Many other posts always mention JV. so i have this question

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

Not mentioning DS, but the rabo cont. team is very good at bring talent to a desired level.

 

[JPM London]

No mention of Riis here? In my view he does some of the best development out there...

 

[Benotti69]

the jump from U23 to the pro peloton is surely chemical and therefore not really for this part of the forum.

 

[Vonn Brinkman]

I'd say the best teams in terms of development are:
HTC - Columbia
Liquigas - Doimo
Rabobank
Garmin - Transitions (?)

 

[indurain666]

the jump from U23 to the pro peloton is surely chemical and therefore not really for this part of the forum.

You are wrong. Riders start seeing chemicals way before they turn pro, that doesn't mean all riders use them though. And although I am not denying that about 90% of the top professional riders use something, if you can't "turn pro" without chemicals, juice won't make you pro.

Sorry to hurt your feelings, but some gifted athletes can ride TT bicycles at 50 kmh for 40-60 minutes without "chemicals"

 

[Escarabajo]

I'd say the best teams in terms of development are:
HTC - Columbia
Liquigas - Doimo
Rabobank
Garmin - Transitions (?)

I pick these two from your list.

JV has been excellent developing talent (Not necessarily young).

At some point in the end of the 1990's and beginning of 2000's, I thought the best team for developing talent was Kelme. By now we all know how that ended up.

Young athletes get expose to doping from very young, but that does not mean that they had the same programs to when they are pro. There are several examples of that including the Texan. So to say that you become a successful pro just on talent can be misleading also.

Note: This topic is probably half clinic / half road racing and that's the reasons for my comments.

 

[Arnout]

How can you ever say Rabobank? Its almost the worst team in terms of talent development. Which talents prospered during their time with Rabobank? I can only think of Gesink...

Even riders such as Lars Boom are struggling at the moment.

 

[Escarabajo]

How can you ever say Rabobank? Its almost the worst team in terms of talent development. Which talents prospered during their time with Rabobank? I can only think of Gesink...

Even riders such as Lars Boom are struggling at the moment.

I said it because of Gesink.

 

[Arnout]

I said it because of Gesink.

Gesink has enough talent and more importantly, is determined enough to break through in any team. Its the other talents that tell the story. And its a bad story.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Arnout is your typical by media influenced Dutchman (and Basque fan)
I wouldn't say Boom is struggling really... Vuelta stage win, Paris Nice stage win, GP Jef Scherens win, dutch champs last year, etc...

Riders from Rabo TT3 / Rabo Continental that performed well, with or without dope, as professional
You shouldn't count only the world class riders (Gesink).
They might not reach full potential at Rabo Pro Team, because there it's different. But the succes of the CT team is undeniable, and that's also Rabobank Arnout, no matter how you put it.

Pieter Weening (TDF stage win, but also Poland and Österreich rundfahrt stage wins and many good placings in small stage races)
Joost Posthuma (Small stage races wins / time trial wins)
Bernard Kohl (we all know the story)
Thomas Dekker (see Kohl)
Laurens Ten Dam (good mountain domestique)
Rory Sutherland (doing great at United HealthCare for a couple of years already)
Ryder Hesjedal (no explanation needed)
Robert Gesink (see Hesjedal)
Martijn Maaskant (4th Roubaix, 4th Flanders)
Lars Boom (Tour of Belgium, Dutch ITT & road champion, Vuelta stage win, Paris Nice prologue, GP Jef Scherens etc.)
Bauke Mollema (12th Giro, winner Poland stage, 2nd in GC this year)
Kenny van Hummel (good b-sprinter)
Kevin de Weert (top 20 Tour)
Koen de Kort (somehow selected for the worlds)
Jens Mouris (winner Ronde van Groene Hart)
Michiel Elijzen (modest helper, ENECO prologue win)
Serge Pauwels (top 10 giro mountain stages)
Stef Clement (top 3 worlds ITT few years back, good in small stage races as well)
Marc de Maar (great year at UHC)
Tom Stamsnijder (close to Vuelta stage win as neo pro. Then had some very nice results in smaller races but also the Giro time trials this year)
William Walker (australian champion that had to quit due to health problems)
Tom Veelers (good skil sprinter/classics man)
Tom Leezer (7th in Vattenfall, guy for the thougher sprints in the future)
Jos van Emden (dutch ITT champ, top in many time trials this year, strong final km as well)
Steven Kruijswijk (broke through this year, top 20 Giro, top 10 burgos)
Michael van Staeyen (won a week ago)
Klaas Lodewijck (another strong Belgian finisher)
Teejay van Garderen (no need to explain)
Michel Kreder (top 10 Catalunya, 3rd in GP Miguel Indurain behind Valverde and Rodriguez)
Theo Bos (plenty of wins in smaller stage races so far.)

And there's still some others riders that have shown promise but that I not put up there.
Ofcourse there have been plenty of failures to (scheuneman for the win!), but most of the Rabobank Continental riders have had some level of succes, wether it be Pro Tour riders like Gesink or continental tour level riders as Van Hummel.
And there's still a lot of class to come through the next years with Slagter, Kelderman, Vermeltfoort, Bol, etc....
Personally, I think this list speaks for itself.
The Rabobank Continental team is one of the best future development programs there is and has been hugely succesful.

 

[theyoungest]

How can you ever say Rabobank? Its almost the worst team in terms of talent development. Which talents prospered during their time with Rabobank? I can only think of Gesink...

Even riders such as Lars Boom are struggling at the moment.

WTF? Have you seen the Eneco Tour? Or the GP Jef Scherens, the race he won just a week ago?

 

[royalpig180]

Mapei-Quick Step's lower level team was pretty good back in the day:
They had Fabian Cancellara, Filippo Pozatto, Bernhard Eisel, and Michael Rogers all at the same time! That's what I call development...

 

[rhubroma]

You are wrong. Riders start seeing chemicals way before they turn pro, that doesn't mean all riders use them though. And although I am not denying that about 90% of the top professional riders use something, if you can't "turn pro" without chemicals, juice won't make you pro.

Sorry to hurt your feelings, but some gifted athletes can ride TT bicycles at 50 kmh for 40-60 minutes without "chemicals"

You do realize you contradict yourself in a major way?

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Not mentioning DS, but the rabo cont. team is very good at bring talent to a desired level.

and then making them suck at pro level again.

I'd say the best is probably unzue.

 

[Kwibus]

You do realize you contradict yourself in a major way?

No you misunderstand him. That's all.
First he says that riders see chemicals waaay before they reach pro since someone here said that going pro = using chemicals.
Second he says that a rider that goes pro is able to go pro without the chemicals. He doesn't say they ain't using them, which they probably are.
I don't see any contradiction here.

 

[Vonn Brinkman]

Thank you Dekker-Tifosi for that great post.
I am not the greatest Rabobank fan (even though I am a Dutchman), but I completely agree that Rabobank has an extensive development program. Even if they do not produce the greatest talents, they have a great development team and exploit the Dutch youth as much as possible to create greater talents for the future. Gesink is a perfect example of course, but so are other guys like Theo Bos, Bauke Mollema, Dennis van Winden en Lars Boom.

 

[Arnout]

WTF? Have you seen the Eneco Tour? Or the GP Jef Scherens, the race he won just a week ago?

Obviously he is a very good rider. But I've seen no improvement this year. Yes, he did win some races, but his classics were poor and his Tour was below par. That were his season goals, not a small Belgian race.

Impressive list, but it sort of proves the point. Read the list and you see that many of those riders were promising and delivered in the first 2 or 3 years, and after that faded away. Of course there are exceptions such as Gesink and Hesjedal, but I don't say that Rabobank is the worst team, I only say that it is that it is not a good team for talent development.

But look at the name. Maaskant, Langeveld, Stamsnijder, Posthuma and more, all were promising but stagnated.

 

[theyoungest]

Obviously he is a very good rider. But I've seen no improvement this year. Yes, he did win some races, but his classics were poor and his Tour was below par. That were his season goals, not a small Belgian race.

Impressive list, but it sort of proves the point. Read the list and you see that many of those riders were promising and delivered in the first 2 or 3 years, and after that faded away. Of course there are exceptions such as Gesink and Hesjedal, but I don't say that Rabobank is the worst team, I only say that it is that it is not a good team for talent development.

But look at the name. Maaskant, Langeveld, Stamsnijder, Posthuma and more, all were promising but stagnated.

I'm sure you could make such a list for every team out there. In fact, with Maaskant you've already mentioned a guy who stagnated on Garmin. Boom has done the classics to gain experience, and the Tour as a domestique. Posthuma has had a crap season, but before this year he didn't do too bad, I think. Stamsnijder has come into his own after returning to Rabo from Gerolsteiner, he's evolving into a good domestique and I think that's where his future lies. And Langeveld... I'm sure his webmaster Dekker T can tell you what the hell is wrong with this guy.

 

[joy118118]

If Rabo is not on the list, i cant see any reason Garmin could on it.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

I'm sure you could make such a list for every team out there. In fact, with Maaskant you've already mentioned a guy who stagnated on Garmin. Boom has done the classics to gain experience, and the Tour as a domestique. Posthuma has had a crap season, but before this year he didn't do too bad, I think. Stamsnijder has come into his own after returning to Rabo from Gerolsteiner, he's evolving into a good domestique and I think that's where his future lies. And Langeveld... I'm sure his webmaster Dekker T can tell you what the hell is wrong with this guy.

Knee problems in the early season for Langeveld
Maaskant probably has a virus/pfeiffer considering he is now getting his blood checked after feeling crap all season (and having to abandon Montreal/Quebec after 1/2 laps)
And Arnout is awfully early at calling riders "stagnating" or "not-progressing" when they ares still so young. F.ex a guy like Maaskant is only a 3rd year pro..

Maybe Arnout doesn't know, but a guy like Philippe Gilbert "stagnated" for years at Fdjeux if we take Arnouts view on cycling. Because between his 2004 and 2008 he barely made any progression at all, especially in the though hilly classics like Amstel, Liege, Lombardia. Then he goes to Lotto and lookey, Gilbert breaks through.

So, better not write them off already. You don't do the same with Nieve/Anton/Intxausti too, do you Arnout? ;-)

 

[theyoungest]

Knee problems in the early season for Langeveld
Maaskant probably has a virus/pfeiffer considering he is now getting his blood checked after feeling crap all season (and having to abandon Montreal/Quebec after 1/2 laps)

And Arnout is awfully early at calling riders "stagnating" or "not-progressing" when they ares still so young. F.ex a guy like Maaskant is only a 3rd year pro..

Oh yes, I forgot, you're probably Maaskant's webmaster as well