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Talanski is 5th @ 7:43 - about 3:30 behind Chaves in 3rd.Eshnar said:all this people talking about the great depth of the Vuelta field... I wonder what position they think a guy like Talansky would get in the Giro.
This, lets not pretend that the Vuelta field was super strong, they had a few big names, but other than that...Eshnar said:all this people talking about the great depth of the Vuelta field... I wonder what position they think a guy like Talansky would get in the Giro.
No he wouldn't. Valverde, Kruijswijk, Nibali and Chavez were all stronger. And Chaves was 3 minutes down before Coathanger crashed. The Giro strength was not so much below the Vuelta. The sprinter strength was actually much better. The only reason people think the Vuelta was so much higher in quality is because of Quintana and Froome. Contador was out of shape so wouldn't in this form have done much better in the Giro.Cookster15 said:Talanski is 5th @ 7:43 - about 3:30 behind Chaves in 3rd.Eshnar said:all this people talking about the great depth of the Vuelta field... I wonder what position they think a guy like Talansky would get in the Giro.
The Giro Chaves came 2nd @ 52 sec.
Not sure what your point is? I'd say Talanski would have finished higher in the Giro field.
But it was still below the Vuelta not above which is the original point I replied to. Nibali wasn't that strong this year. He almost won by default. Chaves was stronger in this Vuelta than he was back in May and your point about him benefitting from Kruijswijk's crash just reinforces that point.Brullnux said:No he wouldn't. Valverde, Kruijswijk, Nibali and Chavez were all stronger. And Chaves was 3 minutes down before Coathanger crashed. The Giro strength was not so much below the Vuelta. The sprinter strength was actually much better. The only reason people think the Vuelta was so much higher in quality is because of Quintana and Froome. Contador was out of shape so wouldn't in this form have done much better in the Giro.Cookster15 said:Talanski is 5th @ 7:43 - about 3:30 behind Chaves in 3rd.Eshnar said:all this people talking about the great depth of the Vuelta field... I wonder what position they think a guy like Talansky would get in the Giro.
The Giro Chaves came 2nd @ 52 sec.
Not sure what your point is? I'd say Talanski would have finished higher in the Giro field.
based on what?Cookster15 said:But it was still below the Vuelta not above which is the original point I replied to. Nibali wasn't that strong this year. He almost won by default. Chaves was stronger in this Vuelta than he was back in May and your point about him benefitting from Kruijswijk's crash just reinforces that point.
Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.Eshnar said:based on what?Cookster15 said:But it was still below the Vuelta not above which is the original point I replied to. Nibali wasn't that strong this year. He almost won by default. Chaves was stronger in this Vuelta than he was back in May and your point about him benefitting from Kruijswijk's crash just reinforces that point.![]()
Talansky, Yates, De La Cruz, Moreno, Formolo, Bennett. Did any of these guys ever get a top 10 in any Giro or Tour?
(genuine question here... I suspect no)
I don't quite see the logic here... Was Quintana at the Giro? Was the Giro route comparable in any way to the Vuelta's?Cookster15 said:Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.
Talansky did grab a 10th in 2013.Eshnar said:based on what?Cookster15 said:But it was still below the Vuelta not above which is the original point I replied to. Nibali wasn't that strong this year. He almost won by default. Chaves was stronger in this Vuelta than he was back in May and your point about him benefitting from Kruijswijk's crash just reinforces that point.![]()
Talansky, Yates, De La Cruz, Moreno, Formolo, Bennett. Did any of these guys ever get a top 10 in any Giro or Tour?
(genuine question here... I suspect no)
Irrelevant. It was also irrelevant your earlier point about riders like Bennett or Moreno. We are comparing Chaves at the Giro and Vuelta. I explained why he was stronger now than in May based upon how he rode in relation to the winner. I also contend that Quintana and Froome would have beaten Nibali at the Giro in this form. You can chose to disagree that's fine.Eshnar said:I don't quite see the logic here... Was Quintana at the Giro? Was the Giro route comparable in any way to the Vuelta's?Cookster15 said:Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.
he rode the same way in relation to the winner. He was 3' down on Kruijswijk coming into stage 19 and he was 4' down on Quintana coming into stage 19... So how does that compare? those 18 stages were pretty different in the two cases.Cookster15 said:Irrelevant. We are comparing Chaves at the Giro and Vuelta. I explained why he was stronger now than in May based up[on how he rode in relation to the winner. I also contend that Quintana or Froome would have beaten Nibali at the Giro in this form. You can chose to disagree that's fine.Eshnar said:I don't quite see the logic here... Was Quintana at the Giro? Was the Giro route comparable in any way to the Vuelta's?Cookster15 said:Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.
I would rate Quintana Vuelta much much stronger than Kruijswijk Giro. No compare.Eshnar said:he rode the same way in relation to the winner. He was 3' down on Kruijswijk coming into stage 19 and he was 4' down on Quintana coming into stage 19... So how does that compare? those 18 stages were pretty different in the two cases.Cookster15 said:Irrelevant. We are comparing Chaves at the Giro and Vuelta. I explained why he was stronger now than in May based up[on how he rode in relation to the winner. I also contend that Quintana or Froome would have beaten Nibali at the Giro in this form. You can chose to disagree that's fine.Eshnar said:I don't quite see the logic here... Was Quintana at the Giro? Was the Giro route comparable in any way to the Vuelta's?Cookster15 said:Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.
Quintana rode a route where was much harder to gain time though.Cookster15 said:I would rate Quintana Vuelta much much stronger than Kruijswijk Giro. No compare.Eshnar said:he rode the same way in relation to the winner. He was 3' down on Kruijswijk coming into stage 19 and he was 4' down on Quintana coming into stage 19... So how does that compare? those 18 stages were pretty different in the two cases.Cookster15 said:Irrelevant. We are comparing Chaves at the Giro and Vuelta. I explained why he was stronger now than in May based up[on how he rode in relation to the winner. I also contend that Quintana or Froome would have beaten Nibali at the Giro in this form. You can chose to disagree that's fine.Eshnar said:I don't quite see the logic here... Was Quintana at the Giro? Was the Giro route comparable in any way to the Vuelta's?Cookster15 said:Based upon where Chaves rode in relation to Quintana, he was easily the 3rd strongest climber and the fact he benefitted by Kruijswijk's crash in the Giro. Pretty simple really.
One could also say Quintana and Froome became slightly worse at the end of the Vuelta because they have already ridden the tour. Generally it seems as if everyone underrates this factor. Quintana probably wasn't even in a better shape than in the tour, but everyone else was worse.Valv.Piti said:Its pretty obvious that Chaves (from Aubisque and on) time his form much better than in the Giro, he was spent the last few stages. He was incredible good the last week in this Vuelta, especially yesterday was hella impressive.
This. Froome, Quintana and Contador are the three best GT riders. OK, Chaves pushed Contador into 4th place but Contador enlivened the race majorly and was weakened by a crash. The Vuelta had a much stronger field for GC than the Giro, and has had for a few years now.Valv.Piti said:The top end level was clearly better in La Vuelta, but the depth after Kruiswijk and Lopez crashed out was probably slightly worse. It also makes it look bad that Konig fell asleep, Valverde lost 10 minutes one day and Sanchez crashed and therefore fell out of top-10. It could have looked much better.
Chaves at Corvara was better than Chaves at this Vuelta. He was good in the last week because he was fresher than his rivals, not because he was in better shape than in May. He was spent in the last week of the Giro because he wasn't fresher than his rivals.Valv.Piti said:Its pretty obvious that Chaves (from Aubisque and on) time his form much better than in the Giro, he was spent the last few stages. He was incredible good the last week in this Vuelta, especially yesterday was hella impressive.
Strange logic. Firstly, no way was Nibali that strong in the Giro, at least compared to his 2013 Giro and 2014 Tour form - both Quintana and Froome would have beaten Nibali in the form they had this Vuelta. So why wasn't Chaves fresh in the 3rd week of the Giro when it was the first GT of the season? He also benefited from Kruijswijk's crash. I say he is fresher now because he's in better shape, not because the Vuelta was a weaker field. You are always "fresher" when you are in better form.Brullnux said:Chaves at Corvara was better than Chaves at this Vuelta. He was good in the last week because he was fresher than his rivals, not because he was in better shape than in May. He was spent in the last week of the Giro because he wasn't fresher than his rivals.Valv.Piti said:Its pretty obvious that Chaves (from Aubisque and on) time his form much better than in the Giro, he was spent the last few stages. He was incredible good the last week in this Vuelta, especially yesterday was hella impressive.
This argument is like your Chaves argument. Rider X was worse than rider Y, because I say so. I don't have any proof, but just believe me, because I definitely know it.Cookster15 said:Strange logic. Firstly, no way was Nibali that strong in the Giro, at least compared to his 2013 Giro and 2014 Tour form - both Quintana and Froome would have beaten Nibali in the form they had this Vuelta. So why wasn't Chaves fresh in the 3rd week of the Giro when it was the first GT of the season? He also benefited from Kruijswijk's crash. I say he is fresher now because he's in better shape, not because the Vuelta was a weaker field. You are always "fresher" when you are in better form.Brullnux said:Chaves at Corvara was better than Chaves at this Vuelta. He was good in the last week because he was fresher than his rivals, not because he was in better shape than in May. He was spent in the last week of the Giro because he wasn't fresher than his rivals.Valv.Piti said:Its pretty obvious that Chaves (from Aubisque and on) time his form much better than in the Giro, he was spent the last few stages. He was incredible good the last week in this Vuelta, especially yesterday was hella impressive.
Last two stages of Nibali was pretty good. Not amazing but would've easily podiumed this Vuelta, and probably challenged both Nairo and Froome.Cookster15 said:Strange logic. Firstly, no way was Nibali that strong in the Giro, at least compared to his 2013 Giro and 2014 Tour form - both Quintana and Froome would have beaten Nibali in the form they had this Vuelta. So why wasn't Chaves fresh in the 3rd week of the Giro when it was the first GT of the season? He also benefited from Kruijswijk's crash. I say he is fresher now because he's in better shape, not because the Vuelta was a weaker field. You are always "fresher" when you are in better form.Brullnux said:Chaves at Corvara was better than Chaves at this Vuelta. He was good in the last week because he was fresher than his rivals, not because he was in better shape than in May. He was spent in the last week of the Giro because he wasn't fresher than his rivals.Valv.Piti said:Its pretty obvious that Chaves (from Aubisque and on) time his form much better than in the Giro, he was spent the last few stages. He was incredible good the last week in this Vuelta, especially yesterday was hella impressive.