Bolt Contador Armstrong Phelps AIG anology

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Oh I don't know about that... FloJo made massive improvements at age 29 and she never tested positive!

Yeah true, same as Rijs never tested positive and Armstrongs test was manipulated by the french mafia

 

[Ozzie2]

It would be nice if forums members were a bit more consistent on this. Blackcat and others have thrown more insults at me than I have at them. You don't see me whining though.

I do agree that you are the #1 recepticle of being dumped on, but you give as good as you get and appear able to wear it. Who fired first? Don't know- but feel we are entertained by your presence

I must say I felt you were unneccessarily vicIous on Betsy- "your husband is an admitted EPO user- you are bitter" etc. That was low and seemed like you were furthering a personal agenda

please stay- but perhaps open your mind as much as others here are

The leap on blackcat for his Cheney/ Iraq/ Strauss comments was also not necessary. I find the whole neo- con/ red pill/ matrix behind the US imperialism and lance through the last decade as very pertinent and enhancing th discussion onthe cult of lance, and public perceptions

 

[blackcat]

Whose propaganda would that be? I've already stated that Armstrong likely doped in his early years - he wouldn't like me saying this.

You engage in propaganda by putting the worst possible spin on everything. Propaganda is all in the eye of the beholder.

I think you also confuse cynicism with intelligence - the two are not necessarily connected. Anyone can just poo poo everything and always suspect the worst - that's easy. It's not clever.

no, cycling in the last two decades has taught being sceptical is the sound and rational approach, not the conspiracy. The podiums of the GTs are a cavalcade of who's who of the sport. There is no one who has not been touched.

my default expectation for the pointy end of the peloton, is dopage.

It is not clever, it is rational. Then you can conduct a dialectic to ascertain more nuance.

 

[Anonymous]

Whose propaganda would that be? I've already stated that Armstrong likely doped in his early years - he wouldn't like me saying this.

You engage in propaganda by putting the worst possible spin on everything. Propaganda is all in the eye of the beholder.

I think you also confuse cynicism with intelligence - the two are not necessarily connected. Anyone can just poo poo everything and always suspect the worst - that's easy. It's not clever.

Propaganda is subjective spin to shape an argument to fit a desired conclusion. "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".... yeah, not so much. There is the truth and then there is everything else.

It's time to open your eyes.

 

[The Executioner]

Bolt, champion
Phelps, champion
Contador, champion
.
.
.
.
.
.
Armstrong/Ferrari, he won a mtn bike race in Colorado this year.

 

[Ozzie2]

People misunderstood the point I was making. She did too, so I left it.

I’m not sure I accept that you were misunderstood

My perception is that you clearly and repetitively went for her throat along the lines of “your husband ADMITTED he doped, and he couldn’t beat Lance, who was clean”, ergo you are bitter with an agenda

If there was confusion or ambiguity I believe you did not make an effort to clarify, or clear it up.

To be honest it read like you are LA’s brother and were sticking the knife in where possible to her.

 

[Race Radio]

People misunderstood the point I was making. She did too, so I left it.

What was your point? To prove to the forum you are a Troll?

 

[blackcat]

No. This is point I was trying to make. Many people say Armstrong's victories were a myth and a con, so i was trying to get Betsy to counter this point. Her husband took EPO and rode along side Armstrong but was not viewed as a stronger rider than Armstrong, so obviously the EPO doesn't explain Armstrong's victories. That was the issue. I was not saying "you get lance just because your husband was a drugs cheat who couldn't beat him". That had nothing to do with it. And if she could admit Armstrong deserved to win, coming from someone who has fallen out with Armstrong, that would be a powerful rebute of the critics. 'Even Betsy Andreu admits Armstrong's success was not a "myth", etc' My point was not to dismiss her by saying she was bitter; my point was to highlight how EVEN someone who is naturally bitter due to the court case dispute could still validate Armstrong's achievements, thus putting the trolls in a tight spot. Do you see?

However, reading some of her other posts, I fear she has gotten too far sucked into this internet world and would probably join those who use the m word, so I needn't have bothered.

Lastly, though people misunderstood the motivation for why I brought up Frankies EPO use, I don't see what is so offensive about that. If she is going to be held up as an anti doping icon on message boards like this, and people here are always pointing the finger, it would be hypocritical to think this is out of bounds. Are you suddenly going to forgive other riders who wait until they are safely retired to admit they were doping? I doubt it.

BPC, I do not see Armstrong's wins as a myth and a con. I see his narrative and media construction as a myth tho.

I have been clear about Armstrong, and his wins, and the peloton he competed against. How the team and business strategy of USPS was superior. Doping was part of that.

 

[Hugh Januss]

"www.whatreallyhappened.com"

Anyone else see a pattern here?

I tried to click on your link, I think it's broken.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

.....

Lastly, though people misunderstood the motivation for why I brought up Frankies EPO use, I don't see what is so offensive about that. If she is going to be held up as an anti doping icon on message boards like this, and people here are always pointing the finger, it would be hypocritical to think this is out of bounds. Are you suddenly going to forgive other riders who wait until they are safely retired to admit they were doping? I doubt it.

Firstly - I do not hold Betsy in such high esteem because she is anti-doping, it is because she told the truth.

I don't know what Betsys stance on doping is, except that in her radio interview she says she was very angry when she suspected her husband was on EPO - and also that they argued when she heard Lance confess to taking PED's.

You seem to come back to the same point in your comments. While I acknowledge Lance is an extraordinary athlete who if it wasn't for cancer would have become a great Classics rider - but there is no way he was ever going to get to the top step in a GT without a very good 'medical programme'.

 

[Hugh Januss]

"www.whatreallyhappened.com"

Anyone else see a pattern here?

Firstly - I do not hold Betsy in such high esteem because she is anti-doping, it is because she told the truth.

I don't know what Betsys stance on doping is, except that in her radio interview she says she was very angry when she suspected her husband was on EPO - and also that they argued when she heard Lance confess to taking PED's.

You seem to come back to the same point in your comments. While I acknowledge Lance is an extraordinary athlete who if it wasn't for cancer would have become a great Classics rider - but there is no way he was ever going to get to the top step in a GT without a very good 'medical programme'.

It's not so much that she told the truth, but that she told the truth when she didn't want to, had no good reason to, and in fact had a whole lot of really good reasons for why she should just have said "I can't remember".
There are not a lot of people anymore who have a real problem with telling "little lies" and that is a lot of what is wrong with the world today.

 

[Ozzie2]

No. This is point I was trying to make. Many people say Armstrong's victories were a myth and a con, so i was trying to get Betsy to counter this point. Her husband took EPO and rode along side Armstrong but was not viewed as a stronger rider than Armstrong, so obviously the EPO doesn't explain Armstrong's victories. That was the issue. I was not saying "you go after lance just because your husband was a drugs cheat who couldn't beat him". That had nothing to do with it. And if she could admit Armstrong deserved to win, coming from someone who has fallen out with Armstrong, that would be a powerful rebute of the critics. 'Even Betsy Andreu admits Armstrong's success was not a "myth", etc' My point was not to dismiss her by saying she was bitter; my point was to highlight how EVEN someone who is naturally bitter due to the court case dispute could still validate Armstrong's achievements, thus putting the trolls in a tight spot. Do you see?

However, reading some of her other posts, I fear she has gotten too far sucked into this internet world and would probably join those who use the m word, so I needn't have bothered.

Lastly, though people misunderstood the motivation for why I brought up Frankies EPO use, I don't see what is so offensive about that. If she is going to be held up as an anti doping icon on message boards like this, and people here are always pointing the finger, it would be hypocritical to think this is out of bounds. Are you suddenly going to forgive other riders who wait until they are safely retired to admit they were doping? I doubt it.

Sort of
There is a big difference between admitting LA was a better rider than her husband- I am sure she would accept that.

But deserving? Hmm. I think if her husband WERE lance Armstrong would she still say he was deserving? I doubt she could.

Why do you assume that she was naturally bitter? Many people hold no resentment or enmity, something I try to do. I can’t say she doesn’t- I don’t know her. But I do not see that her case implies she would be bitter. Could she not be disappointed, sad?

But who can say anyone in a murky sport “deserves” to win. Worked hard yes, struggled yes, fastest rider probably, best rider possibly, deserved? Only god knows that one

Also…which trolls put in a tight spot?

You were the one saying watch out Betsy they’re all trying an agenda on you, and here you say “I was trying to get her to say”

Look, sorry, I don’t find your posts convincing in sincerity. I really enjoy you being here even though I find your style distasteful, I think you offer good dialogue as a wicked protagonist.

The whatreallyhappened dig is a classic example of where you do not present yourself in the best light. Are you mocking me, saying this voids my comments, implying something? It just isn’t necessary. You would possibly have more feedback and positive dialogue if you avoided the hit’n’run approach with things like that.

 

[blackcat]

Sort of
There is a big difference between admitting LA was a better rider than her husband- I am sure she would accept that.

But deserving? Hmm. I think if her husband WERE lance Armstrong would she still say he was deserving? I doubt she could.

Why do you assume that she was naturally bitter? Many people hold no resentment or enmity, something I try to do. I can’t say she doesn’t- I don’t know her. But I do not see that her case implies she would be bitter. Could she not be disappointed, sad?

But who can say anyone in a murky sport “deserves” to win. Worked hard yes, struggled yes, fastest rider probably, best rider possibly, deserved? Only god knows that one

Also…which trolls put in a tight spot?

You were the one saying watch out Betsy they’re all trying an agenda on you, and here you say “I was trying to get her to say”

Look, sorry, I don’t find your posts convincing in sincerity. I really enjoy you being here even though I find your style distasteful, I think you offer good dialogue as a wicked protagonist.

The whatreallyhappened dig is a classic example of where you do not present yourself in the best light. Are you mocking me, saying this voids my comments, implying something? It just isn’t necessary. You would possibly have more feedback and positive dialogue if you avoided the hit’n’run approach with things like that.

Frankie had two top 10 results in Roubaix clean. I think the last clean winner in the Queen of the Classics was Vanderaerden. This puts Frankie's two top ten results in context. He only got on the gear late in his career in 1999, then Betsy castrated him with a blunt pocket knife.

 

[Ozzie2]

Frankie had two top 10 results in Roubaix clean. I think the last clean winner in the Queen of the Classics was Vanderaerden. This puts Frankie's two top ten results in context. He only got on the gear late in his career in 1999, then Betsy castrated him with a blunt pocket knife.

Are they still together? I'd hazard to say he won the more important prize then.

as they say, and i know its glib, but- no amount of success can compensate for failure in the home

 

[elapid]

No. This is point I was trying to make. Many people say Armstrong's victories were a myth and a con, so i was trying to get Betsy to counter this point. Her husband took EPO and rode along side Armstrong but was not viewed as a stronger rider than Armstrong, so obviously the EPO doesn't explain Armstrong's victories. That was the issue. I was not saying "you go after lance just because your husband was a drugs cheat who couldn't beat him". That had nothing to do with it. And if she could admit Armstrong deserved to win, coming from someone who has fallen out with Armstrong, that would be a powerful rebute of the critics. 'Even Betsy Andreu admits Armstrong's success was not a "myth", etc' My point was not to dismiss her by saying she was bitter; my point was to highlight how EVEN someone who is naturally bitter due to the court case dispute could still validate Armstrong's achievements, thus putting the trolls in a tight spot. Do you see?

However, reading some of her other posts, I fear she has gotten too far sucked into this internet world and would probably join those who use the m word, so I needn't have bothered.

BPC, you are the only poster that perpetuates the use of the word "myth". Race Radio used it on occasion, but one person doesn't make "many people say Armstrong's victories were a myth". Race Radio has also said that they would not use the word again out of context, please do the rest of us the same courtesy.

In addition, your summary of Lance and Frankie and EPO is just bizarre. Doping can explain Lance's victories, just as well as they can explain DiLuca's victories. The fact that Frankie took EPO has no bearing on Lance's victories, other than that it made him a better domestique to help in the mountains. His job was never to be a better cyclist than Lance, it was to help Lance win the TdF. No one riding on US Postal/Discovery would have had a job with that team if they had leadership aspirations, because Lance would not have tolerated anyone trying to usurp his authority. Lastly, no one deserves to win, that is a right that is earned on the road in the race. The 2009 TdF proved this point rather eloquently.

 

[workingclasshero]

Love cycling. Good one though.

i see comebacks can't be called your strongest point. keep trying kid

 

[runninboy]

It's not so much that she told the truth, but that she told the truth when she didn't want to, had no good reason to, and in fact had a whole lot of really good reasons for why she should just have said "I can't remember".
There are not a lot of people anymore who have a real problem with telling "little lies" and that is a lot of what is wrong with the world today.

+1. She gets my vote for women of the year because she didn't take the easy way out. She did the right thing, she obviously did not testify for personal gain other than a clear conscience.

 

[runninboy]

No. This is point I was trying to make. Many people say Armstrong's victories were a myth and a con, so i was trying to get Betsy to counter this point. Her husband took EPO and rode along side Armstrong but was not viewed as a stronger rider than Armstrong, so obviously the EPO doesn't explain Armstrong's victories. That was the issue. I was not saying "you go after lance just because your husband was a drugs cheat who couldn't beat him". That had nothing to do with it. And if she could admit Armstrong deserved to win, coming from someone who has fallen out with Armstrong, that would be a powerful rebute of the critics. 'Even Betsy Andreu admits Armstrong's success was not a "myth", etc' My point was not to dismiss her by saying she was bitter; my point was to highlight how EVEN someone who is naturally bitter due to the court case dispute could still validate Armstrong's achievements, thus putting the trolls in a tight spot. Do you see?

However, reading some of her other posts, I fear she has gotten too far sucked into this internet world and would probably join those who use the m word, so I needn't have bothered.

Lastly, though people misunderstood the motivation for why I brought up Frankies EPO use, I don't see what is so offensive about that. If she is going to be held up as an anti doping icon on message boards like this, and people here are always pointing the finger, it would be hypocritical to think this is out of bounds. Are you suddenly going to forgive other riders who wait until they are safely retired to admit they were doping? I doubt it.

You tried to make this "point" in the other forum and ignored the fact that there are different jobs for different riders.
An offensive Lineman takes steriods, the running back takes steriods. Since the lineman never scores a touchdown that doesn't mean the steriods do not help the running back. They were both used by different athletes with different objectives.
In addition you dont have any idea what kind of doses are involved. Maybe Frankie could have kicked LA all around France but when he found out the doses LA takes he decided better to be a live helper than a dead leader.
When you look at the LA personality, the fact that he has to be in the limelight constantly, I could picture him saying "i cheated death before, i can do it again" Attention is the only thing he lives for apparently.
if you add to the that the study that was done a few years ago where a great percentage of athletes said they would dope to win an Olympic medal
if there was no chance of being caught. Even if their health would be severly comprimised later. that is pretty sick, that you NEED to be viewed as successful in someone elses eyes even if it means jeopardizing your health & well being. Lance defintely looks to fit into that category, look at the way he made fun of Ulrich, he couldnt fathom doing a race and accepting second place. This is a win at any cost personality.
Obviously Frankie has a wonderful wife who respects him whether he is first or last because to them it was a job not an obsession.
Your point also ignores the fact that some people respond differently to medication. The best responder might not be the best natural cyclist.
Since the EPO was not being used for the purpose that it was designed for,
(keeping anemic chemotherpay patients alive versus performance enhancement of trained athletes) the results (winning the tour, being the stronger rider)do not prove who the strongest rider would be without the dope.