Teams & Riders Chris Froome Discussion Thread.

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If he's good enough to work for a teammate and willing to do so, then no reason to keep him off the Tour team. Due to the injury, plus his age, plus the fact he had already starting to decline, I don't think he can ever been a GC rider again.
Again this conversation of already decline in 2018? He won the giro with the performance of the decade on stage 18, how can a man that is declining do the watts that he did on that stage? And then he did the podium on the tour. So froome was declining when he won tour 2017,Vuelta 2017, giro 2018 and podium tour 2019 in a row. If this is declining i hope chris froome could decline of this way in the future. Other argument is the fact that he was doing 450 watts in a climbs of 20 min effort and 420 watts in climbs of 40 min effort on may 2019, you can see that on strava, what a declining.
The problem is not the age, it's his right leg. He started on the bike to soon last year with a lot if imbalances still on his body. He screw the recovery with that.
Or maybe he was doing 8 hours of training in africa, to more lately be the best in the world at tour de france.
 
This is my point. And one will definitely be able to say more. He's going to get shelled the next two days, coming in minutes or 10's of minutes down. And today won't look much like progress after that. You're right, if he doesn't loose 5 mins tomorrow that would reinforce what we might have seen today, but that also depends on how they race the first two climbs. If they let the break go and go relatively easy, he's probably going to make it over the top. If they race it hard, he's gone.

As I said he looked a bit better today. He might have just had a really good day, but those were not hard climbs, and the Tour folks, it has hard climbs. La Plagne and the Joux Plane are brutal.
The best way to compare the performances of tomorrow and sunday, should be with the performances on catalunya in valter 2000 and port aine.
But probably you will be right, he's gonna lose a lot of time unfortunately, i prefer to not have great expectations for tomorrow.
 
Again this conversation of already decline in 2018? He won the giro with the performance of the decade on stage 18, how can a man that is declining do the watts that he did on that stage? And then he did the podium on the tour. So froome was declining when he won tour 2017,Vuelta 2017, giro 2018 and podium tour 2019 in a row. If this is declining i hope chris froome could decline of this way in the future. Other argument is the fact that he was doing 450 watts in a climbs of 20 min effort and 420 watts in climbs of 40 min effort on may 2019, you can see that on strava, what a declining.
The problem is not the age, it's his right leg. He started on the bike to soon last year with a lot if imbalances still on his body. He screw the recovery with that.
Or maybe he was doing 8 hours of training in africa, to more lately be the best in the world at tour de france.
LOL, THAT performance. Sorry, but he WAS declining at that point. Actually it was noticeable that he was declining in 2017 AND 2018. He was not dominate in any of the grand tours at that point. The problem is NO ONE comes back to their previous level from the injury he suffered. NO ONE. People 10-15 years YOUNGER than him have never fully come back from those kind of injuries. 8 hours of training is literally meaningless because each rider has different amounts they need for their own level. 8 hours is over training for some. Obviously Froome REQUIRES 8 hours of training. Again age DOES hinder recover. He will not ever regain his previous form. It will not happen. It's been 2 years since his injury. He may improve some, but not enough to ever be a GC contender again.
 
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LOL, THAT performance. Sorry, but he WAS declining at that point. Actually it was noticeable that he was declining in 2017 AND 2018. He was not dominate in any of the grand tours at that point. The problem is NO ONE comes back to their previous level from the injury he suffered. NO ONE. People 10-15 years YOUNGER than him have never fully come back from those kind of injuries. 8 hours of training is literally meaningless because each rider has different amounts they need for their own level. 8 hours is over training for some. Obviously Froome REQUIRES 8 hours of training. Again age DOES hinder recover. He will not ever regain his previous form. It will not happen. It's been 2 years since his injury. He may improve some, but not enough to ever be a GC contender again.
I never said in my comment that he's gonna recover, i already said many times in this forum that he should retire in the end of the season if he there's no improvement in the next months.
So a rider that in 2017 and 2018 won tour, Vuelta, giro and a podium in the tour, in a row was declining.....sorry but that's ridiculous, it's like in football germany wins the euro, nations league and the world championship and after that you will say "germany is declining".
"THAT performance" what are you meaning with that? I hope that you aren't insinuate what i'm thinking because this is not the clinic, and it's very hypocritical someone that has a pic of valverde saying that.
 
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I never said in my comment that he's gonna recover, i already said many times in this forum that he should retire in the end of the season if he there's no improvement in the next months.
So a rider that in 2017 and 2018 won tour, Vuelta, giro and a podium in the tour, in a row was declining.....sorry but that's ridiculous, it's like in football germany wins the euro, nations league and the world championship and after that you will say "germany is declining".
"THAT performance" what are you meaning with that? I hope that you aren't insinuate what i'm thinking because this is not the clinic, and it's very hypocritical someone that has a pic of valverde saying that.
To be fair, there are examples of other athletes who peak (relatively speaking) and then decline, but still win, and win strongly. Armstrong, Evans, etc. You can be declining and still dominant, at least for a while.

Anyhow, back to the more specific issues around Froome ... He is now 2 years post injury and 36, and age will slow recovery (progressively more so as one advances to their 30s, 40s, etc).
 
I never said in my comment that he's gonna recover, i already said many times in this forum that he should retire in the end of the season if he there's no improvement in the next months.
So a rider that in 2017 and 2018 won tour, Vuelta, giro and a podium in the tour, in a row was declining.....sorry but that's ridiculous, it's like in football germany wins the euro, nations league and the world championship and after that you will say "germany is declining".
"THAT performance" what are you meaning with that? I hope that you aren't insinuate what i'm thinking because this is not the clinic, and it's very hypocritical someone that has a pic of valverde saying that.
You can see it in how he was racing at that point that he was beginning his decline. You can't compare TEAMS to individuals. That's apples to oranges.
Beginning a decline does NOT mean you can't win. Valverde had his second most wins in a season in 2018, but looking back that is also where he first showed some signs of decline.
 
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I never said in my comment that he's gonna recover, i already said many times in this forum that he should retire in the end of the season if he there's no improvement in the next months.
So a rider that in 2017 and 2018 won tour, Vuelta, giro and a podium in the tour, in a row was declining.....sorry but that's ridiculous, it's like in football germany wins the euro, nations league and the world championship and after that you will say "germany is declining".
"THAT performance" what are you meaning with that? I hope that you aren't insinuate what i'm thinking because this is not the clinic, and it's very hypocritical someone that has a pic of valverde saying that.
Physically he was declining, as he didn't show massive physical superiority over his rival as he did between 2013 (arguably since 2011's Vuelta) and 2015.
Take your Froome shirt off and compare how he made others look like amateurs in 2013's and 2015's Tours.

The fact that he was still winning after 2015 just shows how good he was, but started using his brain a little bit more and winning seconds in other ways, such as long-ranged attacks, descending attacks and all that.

If you wish, he developed a more strategic mind which still allowed him to win, despite not being at his physical peak.

The same happened to Contador after 2011 (with the exception of 2014).

Try to hinder your emotions and use logic. You'll see how useful that will be.
 
You can see it in how he was racing at that point that he was beginning his decline. You can't compare TEAMS to individuals. That's apples to oranges.
Beginning a decline does NOT mean you can't win. Valverde had his second most wins in a season in 2018, but looking back that is also where he first showed some signs of decline.
tbh you can look a little bit earlier than that.
thing is, Valverde is a freak with a high base level, so it gets harder to realize when he began declining (physically speaking).
 
tbh you can look a little bit earlier than that.
thing is, Valverde is a freak with a high base level, so it gets harder to realize when he began declining (physically speaking).
2018 Vuelta's final 2 mountain stages where he lost his podium spot is where I think it was first noticeable that he had started to decline (physically). He still was dominate in certain types of terrain (note the 14 victories that season). Yes, his base level is insanely high so when he actually started his decline is hard to really see.

If you have a high peak you can still win once you start to decline.

Ripper, he's said did extend his career. He's also said since his knee injury that he's racing on borrowed time.
 
2018 Vuelta's final 2 mountain stages where he lost his podium spot is where I think it was first noticeable that he had started to decline (physically). He still was dominate in certain types of terrain (note the 14 victories that season). Yes, his base level is insanely high so when he actually started his decline is hard to really see.

If you have a high peak you can still win once you start to decline.

Ripper, he's said did extend his career. He's also said since his knee injury that he's racing on borrowed time.
The "borrowed time" comment does not appear to have held up ... he's done very well since :)
 
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Physically he was declining, as he didn't show massive physical superiority over his rival as he did between 2013 (arguably since 2011's Vuelta) and 2015.
Take your Froome shirt off and compare how he made others look like amateurs in 2013's and 2015's Tours.

The fact that he was still winning after 2015 just shows how good he was, but started using his brain a little bit more and winning seconds in other ways, such as long-ranged attacks, descending attacks and all that.

If you wish, he developed a more strategic mind which still allowed him to win, despite not being at his physical peak.

The same happened to Contador after 2011 (with the exception of 2014).

Try to hinder your emotions and use logic. You'll see how useful that will be.
So, winning 3 grand tours in a row is declining, doing 6.1 w/kg on zoncolan in 2018 is declining, attack at 80 km from the finish and put 3 min on everybody pushing the watts of his life is declining. Doing 450 watts in may of 2019 in a 20 min effort is declining, and doing 430 watts in a 30 min effort is declining.
You can say that froome wasn't so brilliant in 2017 on tour and Vuelta victories, but it was strategic, he tried to sustain a good shape between July and spetember, and not peak in the tour. But it doesn't means that he was declining. Not emotions, i'm speaking facts. Nobody is declining wins 3 grand tours in a row, sometimes the strategy to win the tours is diferent.
 
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2018 Vuelta's final 2 mountain stages where he lost his podium spot is where I think it was first noticeable that he had started to decline (physically). He still was dominate in certain types of terrain (note the 14 victories that season). Yes, his base level is insanely high so when he actually started his decline is hard to really see.

If you have a high peak you can still win once you start to decline.

Ripper, he's said did extend his career. He's also said since his knee injury that he's racing on borrowed time.
Valverde said some months ago that he's doing his best numbers ever.
 
Valverde said some months ago that he's doing his best numbers ever.
It's 100% obvious if you watched the 2018 Vuelta that he's not as good in the high mountains as he used to be and the high mountains have always been his weakness. In the areas that are already a weakness where you will first start to see the decline show up. He's always struggled a bit in the high mountains on the long steady climbs. He's had to do different things to try and compensate for that and attempt to do so without harming his sprinting abilities. (for him the 2020 season is worthless because he literally had to totally change his training routine which he's been doing for 30 years and he has issues with change. This year is better to evaluate his decline than last year was and it's definitely there.) His time trialing is pretty much done although that's as much because after his injury he's pretty much stopped training on the TT bike other than when he does training with the team where they want everyone on the TT bikes. He knows he's started his decline. He's even said he really shouldn't be counted on for GT GC anymore, although he still can't fully bring himself to give that up in la Vuelta. He can't take that full month off after the season is over anymore and still maintain that very high base level. He mentioned that after 2019. His knowing he has started to decline is a big reason he's retiring soon, although possibly next year instead of this year as of his most recent comments. Anyone who has watched him over the past 2 decades has seen he has started to decline and his own comments tell you he's started to decline. This is no different from Mario Lemieux when he came out of retirement for a few seasons in the NHL. It was obvious he wasn't as good as he was before. He was still one of the top NHL players, but he wasn't the dominate player he was before his first retirement. Starting to decline does NOT mean you aren't still at a high level.
 
So, winning 3 grand tours in a row is declining, doing 6.1 w/kg on zoncolan in 2018 is declining, attack at 80 km from the finish and put 3 min on everybody pushing the watts of his life is declining. Doing 450 watts in may of 2019 in a 20 min effort is declining, and doing 430 watts in a 30 min effort is declining.
You can say that froome wasn't so brilliant in 2017 on tour and Vuelta victories, but it was strategic, he tried to sustain a good shape between July and spetember, and not peak in the tour. But it doesn't means that he was declining. Not emotions, i'm speaking facts. Nobody is declining wins 3 grand tours in a row, sometimes the strategy to win the tours is diferent.
Facts where?

You're the one still unable to understand the simple fact that declining doesn't mean he turned into a mid-level GC contender.

Between 2013 and 2015 he was the best GC contender by far. He was physically head and shoulders above everyone else (2014 is an unknown due to obvious reasons).
From 2016 until 2019 he was physically declining and had to rely on strategy to still be head and shoulders above everyone else.

Declining != lack of competitiveness.

Still too much for your to understand?
 
Facts where?

You're the one still unable to understand the simple fact that declining doesn't mean he turned into a mid-level GC contender.

Between 2013 and 2015 he was the best GC contender by far. He was physically head and shoulders above everyone else (2014 is an unknown due to obvious reasons).
From 2016 until 2019 he was physically declining and had to rely on strategy to still be head and shoulders above everyone else.

Declining != lack of competitiveness.

Still too much for your to understand?
Yeah, he was declining on stage 18 of the giro 2018, i understand the ridiculous things that you are saying. Strategy doesn't mean that you're declining! If you want to win the double tour/vuelta on the same year, you can't attack in every mountain stage, and not peaking to soon, the strategy for froome was being consistent in 2017, not dominant like 2013/2015 because it was 2 targets, tour and Vuelta. And, once again when it was needed like in the giro, he went on the attack and won the race.
Facts, i gave you numbers, that's what happened, you just make assumptions.
And don't compare what happened with contador in 2011, contador was relatively young in 2011, we all know why contador since 2011 was never the same, but we can't talk of that here.
 
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It's 100% obvious if you watched the 2018 Vuelta that he's not as good in the high mountains as he used to be and the high mountains have always been his weakness. In the areas that are already a weakness where you will first start to see the decline show up. He's always struggled a bit in the high mountains on the long steady climbs. He's had to do different things to try and compensate for that and attempt to do so without harming his sprinting abilities. (for him the 2020 season is worthless because he literally had to totally change his training routine which he's been doing for 30 years and he has issues with change. This year is better to evaluate his decline than last year was and it's definitely there.) His time trialing is pretty much done although that's as much because after his injury he's pretty much stopped training on the TT bike other than when he does training with the team where they want everyone on the TT bikes. He knows he's started his decline. He's even said he really shouldn't be counted on for GT GC anymore, although he still can't fully bring himself to give that up in la Vuelta. He can't take that full month off after the season is over anymore and still maintain that very high base level. He mentioned that after 2019. His knowing he has started to decline is a big reason he's retiring soon, although possibly next year instead of this year as of his most recent comments. Anyone who has watched him over the past 2 decades has seen he has started to decline and his own comments tell you he's started to decline. This is no different from Mario Lemieux when he came out of retirement for a few seasons in the NHL. It was obvious he wasn't as good as he was before. He was still one of the top NHL players, but he wasn't the dominate player he was before his first retirement. Starting to decline does NOT mean you aren't still at a high level.
I'm not saying that valverde wasn't declining, i'm just telling what he strangely said months ago.
You can decline, but you will never win 3 tours in a row if this situation happens, period.
 
I'm not saying that valverde wasn't declining, i'm just telling what he strangely said months ago.
You can decline, but you will never win 3 tours in a row if this situation happens, period.
Most of the riders in the peloton were making the same comments that he did.

Valverde also isn't a Grand Tour specialist and the Tour rarely suited his abilities. The Vuelta is the only Grand Tour that ever suited his abilities and he holds the record for podiums there. Froome will never win one day races. Different types of riders are good at different types of things. Froome is a Grand Tour GC specialist. Valverde is an all rounder.
 
Again this conversation of already decline in 2018? He won the giro with the performance of the decade on stage 18, how can a man that is declining do the watts that he did on that stage? And then he did the podium on the tour. So froome was declining when he won tour 2017,Vuelta 2017, giro 2018 and podium tour 2019 in a row. If this is declining i hope chris froome could decline of this way in the future. Other argument is the fact that he was doing 450 watts in a climbs of 20 min effort and 420 watts in climbs of 40 min effort on may 2019, you can see that on strava, what a declining.
The problem is not the age, it's his right leg. He started on the bike to soon last year with a lot if imbalances still on his body. He screw the recovery with that.
Or maybe he was doing 8 hours of training in africa, to more lately be the best in the world at tour de france.
I get where the decline thing is coming from. Obviously he was not nearly as dominant all over the seaspn and in prep races as before. But he did the *** triple and then finished the TdF after this achievement still on the podium. So I think in that sense he is not given enough credit for how difficult this is and that you have to time your efforts for that. Before his crash in 2019 he also didn't look too strong but I guess after the triple he wanted the 5th TdF and was going for an all-in July peak (unlike the year before). Long story, short - I don't quite believe in the decline story either.

But I also don't believe in the comeback. It has been two years now. Improvements are only there in homeopathic doses (if at all).
 
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