Climbing 12% Grades & Beyond

[syringelessss]

What is the best preparation for becoming what I call is a Double Digit Grade Climber???

I've heard many theories, including:

1. Do long, flat, high cadence routes to build your base.

2. Stay in the saddle.

3. Lie about your times.

4. Climb 12% climbs as practice for climbing 12% climbs.

5. Tell yourself there are supermodels and imported, chilled beers from microbreweries at the top.

Input would be appreciated.

EXTRA CREDIT - how fast do the true sprinters like Cavendish (not Freire, who can climb) go as a percentage of the pure climbers like Sastre, Andy Schleck, and apparently Wiggins, somehow (what fountain of youth did he suddenly find???) (my real question - could I beat Cavendish up Zoncolan?)???

Rich

 

[elapid]

No idea, but I would vote for 4. Train for climbing by climbing. I am training for RAMROD this year (154 miles, 10000 feet of climbing) and I am spending hours in the saddle with lots of climbing. Seems to make sense training for what you're riding.

In regards to your last question, I would guess the professional sprinters would smoke you. For example, the 2004 TT up Alpe d'Huez:

0:39:41 Lance Armstrong
0:47:30 Tom Boonen
0:47:38 Thor Hushovd
0:48:09 Robbie McEwen

And I'm sure they were not going flat out because they just need to get within the cutoff for the stage.

 

[BroDeal]

CN has a story about Hincapie doing a charity ride last month. They timed everyone on a climb in the route. Hincapie had the fastest time for the men.

 

[hfer07]

1,2 & 4.
here I have a couple more:
*the less weigh you carry-the better
*it's all about pace
*do some long rides using the small chain ring
*train your breathing
*figure the best gear combination

 

[Boeing]

along with the above items, I have learned to mix it up in and out of the saddle as a means isolate major muscle groups and less fatigue in each. Primarily in the saddle focus on hamstrings and out of the saddle focus on quads. I am not talking about out of the saddle intervals. Just a good tempo. It depends on the climb but try riding 20% of the time out of the saddle training and whatever combination works race day.

Core strength is huge for climbing IMHO. you cant shoot a cannon out of a canoe

you could also attend a Carmichael Training session and pay big bucks to have him tell you to drink water

 

[Boeing]

1,2 & 4.
here I have a couple more:

*train your breathing

this is perhaps the most overlooked aspect of riding at any level. climbing especiallygood call.

it takes discipline to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth at any level of cycling for me anyway. Deeper breaths. A good cyclist told me many years ago to tempo your breathing like you would tempo your ride or race. Think of it as cadence breathing he said and emphasize inhale through the nose etc. especially during warm up and cool down. it took me some time to get it.

I was a mouth breather and took too many short breaths.

I am no expert here just playing one on the web well into a bottle of wine.

some argue that your breathing is your breathing and it is a reaction and doesnt need to be controlled.

I would be interested in a reply from a true Physio..here

anyway, next climb check your breathing pattern.

 

[flyor64]

...Core strength is huge for climbing IMHO. you cant shoot a cannon out of a canoe
...

I like this quote...mind if I borrow it?

As for the advice...wouldn't have minded reading this sooner. I just did a off-road mtn climb time trial (can't think of a better way to describe it) last night. While my time improved greatly from last year...still not where I wanted to be. next year...another 3 minutes off my time and I'll be where I want to.

thanks

 

[brianf7]

it takes discipline to breathe in through the nose and out through the mouth at any level of cycling for me anyway. Deeper breaths. A good cyclist told me many years ago to tempo your breathing like you would tempo your ride or race. Think of it as cadence breathing he said and emphasize inhale through the nose etc. especially during warm up and cool down. it took me some time to get it.

I was a mouth breather and took too many short breaths.


Fresh Air is 14 psi so the main aim is get the Co2 out and frash air has to flow in practice getting the stale air out of the lungs while riding hard .

While is semi tuck position try to push air out from deep in the guts.

 

[ImmaculateKadence]

The best way to climb varies on the individual. For instance, none of the above would work for me. All I need is somebody standing at the summit with a glazed donut and I would smoke anyone up any climb. Same thing in sprints

 

[laziali]

There are a half dozen or so climbs near where I live with nasty bits ranging between 15% and 20%. Those really nasty parts, though, only go for a few hundred metres to 1km at most, as part of longer climbs. Here's my personal recipe:

1. At the start: Self belief - I AM going to get up this wall.
2. Select gear early, 39x25.
3. Out of the saddle the whole way, maybe sitting down once or twice for 5 to 10 seconds max.
4. Just keep going no matter what.
5. Enjoy the pain

 

[Winterfold]

Learning to sync your breathing and cadence is really important on the really steep out of the saddle stuff. You have to try and manage your heart rate so you dont blow up, cos once you blow you there is no way back.

As for beating Cavendish or anyone else in the Gruppetto - he/they may look slow on the telly but they went up Ventoux in about 70-75 minutes last year.

Try it.

 

[Archibald]

Get the technique right - be far more efficient and waste no energy
as part of that, stay in the saddle for as long as you can as you'll waste energy to keep yourself standing up.
Move forward on your saddle - you'll notice the difference. finding the right place will be a balancing act though (almost literaly as some climbs will have you with it nearly up your jacksie!).
Hands on the flats, wrists down, lean forward over your bars - how far will depend on how steep your climb is. It's about keeping the max weight over the back wheel.
Spin - it then becomes a cardio exercise rather than a strength excercise
Pick your gear early and find your rhythm and keep momentum

Go out and climb - i couldn't climb to save myself when i started out, so once i had the technique sussed i went out on the hardest climb i could find and kept doing it over and over til i could get up it without stopping. several weeks of this (i went out at 6am each sunday) and I had it all falling into place. Perversely, I really enjoy climbing as well as now having the ability to outclimb loads of others...

 

[alberto.legstrong]

The best way to climb varies on the individual. For instance, none of the above would work for me. All I need is somebody standing at the summit with a glazed donut and I would smoke anyone up any climb. Same thing in sprints

If it was a dozen Krispy Kremes, I would advise you to save your energy, I'll save a couple for you. (OK, 1) If you try and even push me/wheelsuck you get nothing, ya hear me, nothing.

As for 12%. How long a 12% grade. 1 km, 10k, 10 miles? I would start with the steepest hill you feel comfortable on and start doing sets, ride up, roll down, ride up, minimum of three eforts, take a 5 min break do it again. Try at least 2 sets, then 3. Then find a steeper hill. And for god's sake lose as much weight as you can without cannibalizing muscle.

What is your height/wght/general fitness? How soon is the ride/race? How much time do you have each week to train?

 

[Tangled Tango]

You´re getting a lot of good advice. I would impress that base miles are crucial, whatever the terrain. Once you´re feeling strong enough start climbing with easier shorter climbs and work your way up to the longer steeper ones.

I would suggest that normally going up a long climb (over 10 Km) getting out of the saddle happens more when you are hitting steeper sections, making turns on a switchback ect. I´ve never had a pattern for that.

The breathing thing is also very important on long climbs. I find if I´m breathing hard, I can focus on my breathing and taking deeper breaths, slow them down. It´s a very Zen kind of thing.

Finally go at a snails pace to start. Ignore cyclist who pass you. You´ll get there, but first just get to the top. After a while you´ll find you are riding up the same climbs you did a month before, but now in a bigger gear. It´s a very slow process, but there is no feeling like making it to the top of a major climb.

Good luck.

 

[syringelessss]

No idea, but I would vote for 4. Train for climbing by climbing. I am training for RAMROD this year (154 miles, 10000 feet of climbing) and I am spending hours in the saddle with lots of climbing. Seems to make sense training for what you're riding.

In regards to your last question, I would guess the professional sprinters would smoke you. For example, the 2004 TT up Alpe d'Huez:

0:39:41 Lance Armstrong
0:47:30 Tom Boonen
0:47:38 Thor Hushovd
0:48:09 Robbie McEwen

And I'm sure they were not going flat out because they just need to get within the cutoff for the stage.

Holy guacamole. I estimate it would take me 70 to 80 minutes to do the 15.5K Alpe D'huez time trial.

I wouldn't even be the Lanterne Rouge, I'd be the Lanterne Crimson with a Doppler red shift....

 

[syringelessss]

You´re getting a lot of good advice. I would impress that base miles are crucial, whatever the terrain. Once you´re feeling strong enough start climbing with easier shorter climbs and work your way up to the longer steeper ones.

I would suggest that normally going up a long climb (over 10 Km) getting out of the saddle happens more when you are hitting steeper sections, making turns on a switchback ect. I´ve never had a pattern for that.

The breathing thing is also very important on long climbs. I find if I´m breathing hard, I can focus on my breathing and taking deeper breaths, slow them down. It´s a very Zen kind of thing.

Finally go at a snails pace to start. Ignore cyclist who pass you. You´ll get there, but first just get to the top. After a while you´ll find you are riding up the same climbs you did a month before, but now in a bigger gear. It´s a very slow process, but there is no feeling like making it to the top of a major climb.

Good luck.

I see some terrific advice in here, and am happy I posted my question, except for the Cavendish part (he would crush me).

With regard to getting out of the saddle, I find, curiously and maybe counterintuitively, it helps when:

1. I'm going through a short 22% switchback; or

2. I'm hitting a gentle part of the climb, and can jump into a harder gear and pick up speed for a stretch. Getting out of the saddle on long, steep sections for me seems to translate into a higher heartrate (10bpm more) and leads to cardio exhaustion more quickly.

But I see the pros stay out of the saddle for long periods. Armstrong once told me he's in the saddle 90% of the time on climbs. I'm still confused by the out-of-the-saddle strategy.

P.S. Out of the saddle can be particularly humorous, however, if I had Mexican food the night before....

 

[Stelvio]

I'm a tourist, not a racer, so my focus is to get up in (relative) comfort rather than as fast as possible. I also stop and take pictures.. Anyway, what I do:

* Sit as far back on the saddle as possible (actually inspired by Pantani, the few times he wasn't out of the saddle).
* Hands on the tops (I have a flat bar, but still)
* Lower arms perpendicular to the road, elbow close to 90 degress
* Deep, steady breathing
* Have a chain connecting your bike with the top of the climb (the brain is easy to fool)

 

[Winterfold]

it's really hard to stay out of the saddle for a long time. Even in the elite groups there are not many riders who can do it. Being out of the saddle at a high cadence is even harder - you have to be really strong in your core and arms and shoulders - but not strong muscley, strong cycley.

Watching Contador hit the gas out of the saddle is poetry in motion - the guy is clearly in a different league to anyone else. (did anyone else clock Contador overtake the camera bike in LBL - ROFLMAO)

On short steep stuff Gilbert is also good to watch, the guy nails it. It's a different kind of style and he is obviously very strong in his upper body, but those extra 4-5 kilos would count against him on long climbs in the big mountains.

I read an interview with someone, Froome or Charly Wegelius or someone like that, and he had measured his power output at a specific speed on the same hill. It takes less power if you are seated to travel at the same speed. I think that is fine up to a point, but once the gradient goes really hard 15% I find staying in the saddle near impossible without zigzagging all over the place and being a liabilty to cars on the same bit of road.

(I am in the Surrey Hills in the UK where we have lots of climbs, 1-3km long where the road goes straight up the side of the hill so gradient in a short stretch can go 5%, 10%, 23% 12% etc but the road is only 6-8 feet wide so zig-zagging the really steep bits is a bit risky if a tractor is coming the other way. The Alps are so much more civilised)

 

[BroDeal]

Personally I think that most stuff on technique is largely bunk. It is the sort of thing that you see in crap publications like Bicycling Magazine. In this issue, "Ten Tips for Climbing in the High Mountains!" Everyone finds a way to get over the hills that seems to work for them. The only important thing is power to weight ratio. Improve power, weight, or both.

 

[ViaPagliano]

There are a half dozen or so climbs near where I live with nasty bits ranging between 15% and 20%. Those really nasty parts, though, only go for a few hundred metres to 1km at most, as part of longer climbs. Here's my personal recipe:

1. At the start: Self belief - I AM going to get up this wall.
2. Select gear early, 39x25.
3. Out of the saddle the whole way, maybe sitting down once or twice for 5 to 10 seconds max.
4. Just keep going no matter what.
5. Enjoy the pain

This is my exact formula for tackling climbs.

#1 and #4 being most important - willpower!

 

[syringelessss]

Personally I think that most stuff on technique is largely bunk. It is the sort of thing that you see in crap publications like Bicycling Magazine. In this issue, "Ten Tips for Climbing in the High Mountains!" Everyone finds a way to get over the hills that seems to work for them. The only important thing is power to weight ratio. Improve power, weight, or both.

Amen on the weight - I've dropped from 172 lbs (USA, sorry) to 149, with marked improvement, but somehow you have to retain your quad power as you lose the weight.

Also, pacing is critical, as I always am deciding how hard to go out so I won't crack late in the climb, although not going hard enough and having unused energy at the end can be even more frustrating.

But my base question is how do you improve your power???

 

[Winterfold]

Find a short steep hill. Climb up it in a bigger gear than you are comfortable with. Coast down. Repeat. Watch the knees.

Brodeal has a point, there is a lot of stuff you can say but ultimately want to climb the Alpe 5 minutes quicker? Drop a few kilos. You have lost quite a bit already though.

I found the breathing thing really helped though on super steep sections ie !5% plus, even if it is difficult to articulate - its like if you are doing sets of weights and you time your breathing so you exhale as you push - except it isn't quite like that because left/right. I'm probably making things worse

 

[Passo Stelvio]

Winterfold makes a good suggestion for addressing the force portion of the equation, but that will only help on short steeps. If you are riding in the Alps or Dolomites, then sustained grades can hit 12% - for an hour at a human pace. The Mortirolo is 20% for close to 5 km.

For these kind of pitches you have to teach the body how to endure at threshold - so you have to train at threshold.

Once you have a good base, start with 4 X 6 minutes in Zone 4 either HR or Power. You will be just underneath you threshold. You can do this workout weekly. Progress to 10 minutes. Periodically test yourself on a climb you know. Avoid windy conditions. Over time you should see your times drop.

 

[Winterfold]

Is the Motirolo really that steep for that long? Insane. ****adoodledo. What I suggest would not be much help for that. Thats more about hitting short steeps with some momentum and getting over them before you have time to think about how steep it is and blow up.

34:29, a huge amount of lactate threshold training, a world of pain and then a car is the only way I would get up 20% for 5km.

 

[syringelessss]

Find a short steep hill. Climb up it in a bigger gear than you are comfortable with. Coast down. Repeat. Watch the knees.

Brodeal has a point, there is a lot of stuff you can say but ultimately want to climb the Alpe 5 minutes quicker? Drop a few kilos. You have lost quite a bit already though.

I found the breathing thing really helped though on super steep sections ie !5% plus, even if it is difficult to articulate - its like if you are doing sets of weights and you time your breathing so you exhale as you push - except it isn't quite like that because left/right. I'm probably making things worse

Thanks to you and Passo Stelvio for advice that sounds great and smacks of the truth!

Rich