Clinic inspired idea - doping experiment

[Armchaircyclist]

It would be nice to see for once in a controlled environment how doping actually works, and how easily it is detected. I've heard of an experiment with 2 similar riders, and how the one was flying compared to the other after doping on epo.

However what I would like to see was a large group of recreational riders, say a 100. Let them ride an uphill race clean, give them a week, then put 50% on placebo, and 50% on epo micro-dose plus maybe some testosterone patches if this is still possible to get away with.

Publish all the times and who actually was juiced. Let wada test everybody and note how many get caught - in this case one would KNOW who doped from the experiment.

Of course this experiment will not happen, but it would be da*n interesting to see. I'm sure a lot of clinic riders would volunteer.

Maybe dangerous thing to do of course, if such an experiment revealed low chance of getting caught, well, could lead even more to dope.

 

[lean mean &green]

WADA, as well as others, fund and publish quite a bit of research not too dissimilar from what you've (the OP) described.

Although there's always individual differences, I'd say the effects of EPO alone are prettty well understood. The biggest confounding effect for me is that drug cocktails are rarely studied, often for ethical and logistical reasons. Few serious PED users only employ one strategy or drug. The bigger unknown is the efficacy of thoughtful, well planned, carefully timed, risk averse drug/method combinations.

So the bigger, and I think more interesting question is, what are the synergistic effects of more complex doping protocols? The really really burning question at the moment, and one I don't have an answer to, is how much PE is possible within the parameters of the current biopassport system? These answers are harder to nail down but my guess is that they're substantial enough to make clean victories in major races very VERY rare.

 

[martinvickers]

It would be nice to see for once in a controlled environment how doping actually works, and how easily it is detected. I've heard of an experiment with 2 similar riders, and how the one was flying compared to the other after doping on epo.

However what I would like to see was a large group of recreational riders, say a 100. Let them ride an uphill race clean, give them a week, then put 50% on placebo, and 50% on epo micro-dose plus maybe some testosterone patches if this is still possible to get away with.

Publish all the times and who actually was juiced. Let wada test everybody and note how many get caught - in this case one would KNOW who doped from the experiment.

Of course this experiment will not happen, but it would be da*n interesting to see. I'm sure a lot of clinic riders would volunteer.

Maybe dangerous thing to do of course, if such an experiment revealed low chance of getting caught, well, could lead even more to dope.

it's already been done I think.

Outside online

and again.

 

[Master50]

There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training. Pros get able to handle the multi day races Leading to the grand tours so even they get stronger and increase their endurance.
That said, I have heard of similar studies already.

 

[martinvickers]

There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training. Pros get able to handle the multi day races Leading to the grand tours so even they get stronger and increase their endurance.
That said, I have heard of similar studies already.

The links weren't made in 100% seriousness - more of a conversation starter, to show the thought had occurred before. But I still found them rather instructive, if not definitive.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

it's already been done I think.

Outside online

and again.

-------------
It's been done by individuals, who were not tested afterwards. For me it would be very interesting to see if the rate of detection actually was any better than before.

Probably any anti-doping agency would be too scared to undertake such a test, as the implication would be that moderate doping is not too dangerous.

 

[gobuck]

Master50 wrote: There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training.

that is one of the +s for the dope. It gives you the energy to want to ride and train, when without it you would take more rest days.

I know when racing season starts I come on like gang busters then slowly become pack fodder. By the end of June I am riding 3 to 5 days per week and not racing much. I am sure my hormone levels are wacked by then from the 2 and 3 hard workouts or races per week.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training. Pros get able to handle the multi day races Leading to the grand tours so even they get stronger and increase their endurance.
That said, I have heard of similar studies already.

----------
Well, if half the group gets PEDs and the other half not, the interesting thing is how the different groups develop. And even more interesting - would the anti-doping authorities catch them ?

 

[Clausfarre]

I would love to see a large, double blind experiment done as suggested. Just how big is the difference on epo? We know it is 'wonderful' but how wonderful? I have watched the tour since 93 so I have not experienced pro-cycling without epo (or whatever rocket fuel they are on today) and since we have very, very few riders in this period who have done well clean, it speaks volumes to the great effect.

93 was the year Riis improved beyond belief and the rest is history. I'm just curious about how extreme the changes are.

Maybe Sky are just using salt water injections and riding on pure placebo effect!

 

[DirtyWorks]

It would be nice to see for once in a controlled environment how doping actually works, and how easily it is detected.

Maybe dangerous thing to do of course, if such an experiment revealed low chance of getting caught, well, could lead even more to dope.

Already done. Except the research I found was a few years old and a small sample. IMHO, one would need to do a study as if the bio-passport is in place to get a sense of the possible benefits of EPO at micro doses.

Let's review a moment what "getting caught" means.

Blood values too high: take a vacation. Is the cyclist "caught"?
Straight-up AAF. Contador's positive was not "caught" by the UCI. It was hidden. It took a journalist to uncover it.
Suspicious, but non-positive. Armstrong apparently met this condition many times. Was he "caught?" Armstrong probably isn't the only one!
Positive even with the bio-passport, but not given an AAF. Armstrong wins the award for this one too!

Current EPO use is micro-dosing in the evenings timed so it is non-positive by the first hour testing can begin the next day.

 

[ElChingon]

I forget the research group that did the EPO test on cyclist, was back in the early 2000's, I do know it was an Australian group, will need to get my journal searches going (again).

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Already done. Except the research I found was a few years old and a small sample. IMHO, one would need to do a study as if the bio-passport is in place to get a sense of the possible benefits of EPO at micro doses.

Let's review a moment what "getting caught" means.

Blood values too high: take a vacation. Is the cyclist "caught"?
Straight-up AAF. Contador's positive was not "caught" by the UCI. It was hidden. It took a journalist to uncover it.
Suspicious, but non-positive. Armstrong apparently met this condition many times. Was he "caught?" Armstrong probably isn't the only one!
Positive even with the bio-passport, but not given an AAF. Armstrong wins the award for this one too!

Current EPO use is micro-dosing in the evenings timed so it is non-positive by the first hour testing can begin the next day.

------------------
Exactly the kind of questions you ask is what I'm interested in.

However after further consideration, perhaps the clinic would consider the world tour as sufficient proof that doping right means you do not get caught.

The bio-passport seems like a poor tool to catch people, and unfortunately also a tool where it would take more to bring down a big superhero like Wiggins or Armstrong for that matter, than some low-ranked domestique, or a runner from eastern europe. The way they don't publish the data from bio-pass tells us all that this is not exact science exactly.

 

[Cloxxki]

If the Clinic regulars were to be allowed insight in test results of unnamed (and even better: named) riders blood tests over 2 seasons, and their race dates, I am sure they could highlight some really shady results, come up with targeted re-tests in the best apt labs, and suggest re-test dates out of competition to get best odds to catch a doper.
WADA, UCI, are simply not doing this, case closed, next!

I'd love to see a proper large scale research like this. Also, go all the way for some participants, to show what a difference it makes to have an agreement with testers and UCI.

 

[The Hitch]

Master50 wrote: There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training.

that is one of the +s for the dope. It gives you the energy to want to ride and train, when without it you would take more rest days.

It's not just a question of will. You risk injury and illness by pushing yourself too far. There is a certain amount of hours a clean athlete can train in whatever sport they do before more training becomes counterproductive. This is obviously increased with dope and more so with more dope.

so by definition a clean athlete cannot train harder on pan y agua than juiced and by extension they are unlikely to train harder than dopers unless they are physiological freaks even by world class athlete standards, which every athlete these days claims to be.

or at least this is what victor conte has said.

 

[blackcat]

NB. PEDs affect different individuals to varying degrees

It would be nice to see for once in a controlled environment how doping actually works, and how easily it is detected. I've heard of an experiment with 2 similar riders, and how the one was flying compared to the other after doping on epo.

However what I would like to see was a large group of recreational riders, say a 100. Let them ride an uphill race clean, give them a week, then put 50% on placebo, and 50% on epo micro-dose plus maybe some testosterone patches if this is still possible to get away with.

Publish all the times and who actually was juiced. Let wada test everybody and note how many get caught - in this case one would KNOW who doped from the experiment.

Of course this experiment will not happen, but it would be da*n interesting to see. I'm sure a lot of clinic riders would volunteer.

Maybe dangerous thing to do of course, if such an experiment revealed low chance of getting caught, well, could lead even more to dope.

WADA, as well as others, fund and publish quite a bit of research not too dissimilar from what you've (the OP) described.

Although there's always individual differences, I'd say the effects of EPO alone are prettty well understood. The biggest confounding effect for me is that drug cocktails are rarely studied, often for ethical and logistical reasons. Few serious PED users only employ one strategy or drug. The bigger unknown is the efficacy of thoughtful, well planned, carefully timed, risk averse drug/method combinations.

So the bigger, and I think more interesting question is, what are the synergistic effects of more complex doping protocols? The really really burning question at the moment, and one I don't have an answer to, is how much PE is possible within the parameters of the current biopassport system? These answers are harder to nail down but my guess is that they're substantial enough to make clean victories in major races very VERY rare.

 

[Krebs cycle]

NB. PEDs affect different individuals to varying degrees

They even affect the same individual differently.

I've been a subject in 2 EPO experiments. In one, my VO2max increased by about 10%, in the other it only increased by 3-4%. I did about the same amount of training both times but I was better trained with a higher starting point in the study where it increased by 3-4%.

 

[IndianCyclist]

The best test group would be elite cyclists who have just retired. Conduct a study in the mountains (Girona, Teneriffe) on such a group for 1 month with blood testing and comparison with existing bio passport and then the study can show the improvement as well as the effectiveness of controls. All other test groups will not be good because of no bio passport for comparison or due to actual performance enhancement in active riders.

BTW ask Conconi, Ferrari. They have conducted probably the most studies on elite professionals.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

NB. PEDs affect different individuals to varying degrees

-------
That's why a study with a lot of subjects would be interesting.

The idea to use retired professionals is good. The only problem is that they would not want to touch doping as it's their moral stance to keep off that stuff

The study will never happen because it could possibly expose the anti-doping ineffectiveness, and because only a select few would agree to do such testing, due to reputation and/or personal moral compass.

However, even if it will not happen, it would be very very interesting if it did.

 

[Boeing]

Master50 wrote: There is a huge flaw in the test set. Recreational cyclists will likely also see large performance changes just from the added riding.
Even fit riders improve just from focused training.

that is one of the +s for the dope. It gives you the energy to want to ride and train, when without it you would take more rest days.

I know when racing season starts I come on like gang busters then slowly become pack fodder. By the end of June I am riding 3 to 5 days per week and not racing much. I am sure my hormone levels are wacked by then from the 2 and 3 hard workouts or races per week.

Further you'd probably have to group like body types (weight height) and ages. put them on a training plan sans dope for 6 months and measure performance. then once their abilities efforts are documented together put them on the juice.