Crashes, what can be done?

[DanielSong39]

The woman in question is out 1500 Euros so she did get a ticket.

Hopefully it serves as a deterrent for others in the future.

 

[Kaptain Kool]

It's also not written in any official document that you are not allowed to show up for a wedding or funeral naked. Or interrupt all speeches there by blowing a whistle.

There are definitely places where being naked in public is a misdemeanor.
Just blowing a whistle wouldn't result in fine or lawsuit. One would probably asked to leave and things could potentially escalate from there but the whistle itself wouldn't have legal consequences.

 

[the delgados]

I keep hearing from professional riders that racing has become more dangerous but not in comparison to any other eras. Also, the same riders I've heard from haven't come up with any specific proposals. I do not mean to come across as dismissive or uncaring in any way -- I never like to see a rider hit the deck; I know what it feels like -- but the argument seems abstract.

Consider, for instance that helmets were relatively recently made mandatory. Can anyone here imagine joining a weekend group-ride, never mind a professional bike race without wearing a helmet?

The issue of barriers in sprint stages have finally been addressed at the end of sprint stages after way too many riders clipped a barrier that sticks out into the road and ends up in the hospital.

Speeds have increased for many reasons, some of which need not be discussed here (I don't want to get suspended). But if you take a look at footage from, say the 60's, you'll see riders crawling up a hill with shoulders rolling from side to side because a) their bikes weighed a ton; and b) their gear ratios were much different.

Race radios no doubt play a difference in the amount of crashes. Think about the difference in the amount of riders who are hearing their director yelling in their ear to reach a certain point in the course compared to before. Now you must have a stampede of at least 150 riders trying to reach the Arrenberg (sp?) Forest before everyone else compared to decades ago.

Regarding crowd control, I'm happy that TDF organizers put away their pitchforks and didn't pursue the matter regarding the stage 1 sign carrier any further. The point was made, and unless she is a total psychopath, I'm sure she is completely mortified. There is no need to make her clean bikes or serve time of pay fines or whatever kooky ideas people have come up with.
We can all be rest assured that she will not do it again.

 

[CyclistAbi]

@jmdirt

Speeding ticket is still a rather common thing, though? Do we really want to have just an impression of increased safety. Like saying we have done enough, by writing some tickets. Peloton still crashing due to fan involved incidents.

@Cookster15

Obviously i could be wrong but i don't feel i am on this one.

All

Why the double standards? Why are you going on about some woman for days. Feeling you are entitled to have a say in this matter or that it affected you in any meaningful way. People involved will get sorted it out. And none of you even remotely blamed ASO for messing up at the end of the stage 3. Some even had the nerve to defend it. This is the area where safety related incidents can really start to drop if people involved will do their job.

Suck it up and move on.

 

[RedheadDane]

And none of you even remotely blamed ASO for messing up at the end of the stage 3. Some even had the nerve to defend it.

Didn't we establish several days ago that ASO had in fact agreed with the rider request of taking the time at 5-K-to-go. but UCI - which is above ASO in term of "rank" - denied the request.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Didn't we establish several days ago that ASO had in fact agreed with the rider request of taking the time at 5-K-to-go. but UCI - which is above ASO in term of "rank" - denied the request.

ASO is the race organiser and as such responsible for rider safety, not UCI. Unless laws in France are that much different that organiser isn't responsible for event safety. I very much doubt that but feel free to correct me.

When ASO agreed safety is insufficient and additional safety measures should be implemented. And when they after backed out and sent riders on the road without implementing the agreed upon safety measures.

That made them liable. But lets forget about law. That made the peloton crash. Just like that woman did.

 

[RedheadDane]

ASO is the race organiser and as such responsible for rider safety, not UCI. Unless laws in France are that much different that organiser isn't responsible for event safety. I very much doubt that but feel free to correct me.

When ASO agreed safety is insufficient and additional safety measures should be implemented. And when they after backed out and sent riders on the road without implementing the agreed upon safety measures.

That made them liable. But lets forget about law. That made the peloton crash. Just like that woman did.

UCI governs all of cycling. They are the ultimate authority!

 

[CyclistAbi]

UCI governs all of cycling. They are the ultimate authority!

No such authority is above local law.

 

[RedheadDane]

No such authority is above local law.

Or... maybe it's ultimately UCI - as the highest authority within cycling - who are answerable to local law.

What exactly are you suggesting ASO should have done? Just taken the time at the requested time anyway?

 

[King Boonen]

For those who many wish to have an informed discussion:

https://www.uci.org/docs/default-source/rules-and-regulations/part-ii-road/2-roa-regulations-e.pdf

 

[jmdirt]

The woman in question is out 1500 Euros so she did get a ticket.

Hopefully it serves as a deterrent for others in the future.

She hasn't paid any fines yet, but she could pay up to 1500 euros.

 

[jmdirt]

@jmdirt

Speeding ticket is still a rather common thing, though? Do we really want to have just an impression of increased safety. Like saying we have done enough, by writing some tickets. Peloton still crashing due to fan involved incidents.

@Cookster15

Obviously i could be wrong but i don't feel i am on this one.

All

Why the double standards? Why are you going on about some woman for days. Feeling you are entitled to have a say in this matter or that it affected you in any meaningful way. People involved will get sorted it out. And none of you even remotely blamed ASO for messing up at the end of the stage 3. Some even had the nerve to defend it. This is the area where safety related incidents can really start to drop if people involved will do their job.

Suck it up and move on.

Again, you twist...

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

Tell me why would you even assume event organiser isn't responsible for the event safety and for that to be regulated by local laws? Why are we even discussing this? Do you know any lawyer you trust and you can just ask? To save us the time on discussing this endlessly.

@jmdirt

In my opinion you don't win a debate or prove something when you start calling other people names. In my honest opinion that just makes you look bad. And it's called using your brain. Or what do you expect for the debate to be linear and tailored to your own taste? Would that even be called a debate?

@King Boonen

I have no problem with your proposition. But tell me first does that PDF prove my claims are bogus? Then please inform me on which grounds as i have no problems with that.

 

[RedheadDane]

@@RedheadDane

Tell me why would you even assume event organiser isn't responsible for the event safety and for that to be regulated by local laws? Why are we even discussing this? Do you know any lawyer you trust and you can just ask? To save us the time on discussing this endlessly.

UCI - again, the higher authority within cycling - overruled the decision made by ASO. Surely by doing that they also accepted that they took the responsibility for any safety issues. Also, you were the one who first brought up local laws. Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure if it was ever brought up at any kind of court, the court in question would probably be CAS.

But you still haven't explained what exactly ASO should have done once UCI refused to accept the suggestion of taking the time at 5 K to go.

 

[the delgados]

The woman in question is out 1500 Euros so she did get a ticket.

Hopefully it serves as a deterrent for others in the future.

I know the race organizers have backed off when it comes to pursuing the matter further. Not only from a compassionate level, but a business perspective as well.
They realize that the poor woman is devastated. She knows the braying hounds have nothing better to do than call for her head.
She admitted that she had to lay low before turning herself in to police to prevent unwanted and completely unnecessary exposure for what she admitted was a stupid mistake. Remember "Bartman?" He was the life-long Chicago Cubs fan attending a playoff game to support his beloved team when he caught a foul ball at an inopportune time and his life changed forever. I won't go into details, but his story is easy to find, and it is truly fascinating.
The TDF race organizers realize that enough exposure has been gained to prevent further actions like these from happening in future. What's to be gained from the poor woman washing bikes? That's just silly talk. Just leave her be and let her get on with her life.
I'm not a lawyer, but if race organizers and teams etc went balls to the wall to sue the woman, I know for sure I would make every effort to point out the fact that no effort was made to prevent fans from stepping on to the road.
What was this poor woman who was attending her first race supposed to think, your honour? She's only seen the race on TV where cameras capture every moment of every spectator screaming into the ears of the riders climbing up a mountain. They are mere inches from the faces of the riders.
No, your honour, we wish to file a counter-suit for all the emotional damage caused to my client.

 

[jmdirt]

I know the race organizers have backed off when it comes to pursuing the matter further. Not only from a compassionate level, but a business perspective as well.
They realize that the poor woman is devastated. She knows the braying hounds have nothing better to do than call for her head.
She admitted that she had to lay low before turning herself in to police to prevent unwanted and completely unnecessary exposure for what she admitted was a stupid mistake. Remember "Bartman?" He was the life-long Chicago Cubs fan attending a playoff game to support his beloved team when he caught a foul ball at an inopportune time and his life changed forever. I won't go into details, but his story is easy to find, and it is truly fascinating.
The TDF race organizers realize that enough exposure has been gained to prevent further actions like these from happening in future. What's to be gained from the poor woman washing bikes? That's just silly talk. Just leave her be and let her get on with her life.
I'm not a lawyer, but if race organizers and teams etc went balls to the wall to sue the woman, I know for sure I would make every effort to point out the fact that no effort was made to prevent fans from stepping on to the road.
What was this poor woman who was attending her first race supposed to think, your honour? She's only seen the race on TV where cameras capture every moment of every spectator screaming into the ears of the riders climbing up a mountain. They are mere inches from the faces of the riders.
No, your honour, we wish to file a counter-suit for all the emotional damage caused to my client.

Just FYI: my washing bikes 'idea' was exactly that, tongue in cheek, silly talk. Even if that was a good idea, do you think that the mechanics would let her (or anyone else for that matter) near the team bikes?

I hope you didn't think that I was serious about rubbing salt in her hangnail either.

 

[RedheadDane]

I hope you didn't think that I was serious about rubbing sault in her hangnail either.

Do we even know she has a hangnail?

 

[jmdirt]

Do we even know she has a hangnail?

The carboard caught her cuticle.

 

[Cookster15]

Punishment under law includes a deterrent aspect. Can you imagine the anarchy if there were no consequences to our actions?

The woman in question is out 1500 Euros so she did get a ticket.

Hopefully it serves as a deterrent for others in the future.

FYI, not sure about Europe or America but "fans" in Australia can be charged AUD 5,500 for running onto cricket or football pitches at major events and that is for causing no physical injury to anyone. If this woman was fined 1500 Euros she got off very lightly for her stupidity and lack of duty of care that caused injury and mayhem.

Pitch Invasion Penalties At NSW Sporting Venues - Astor Legal

 

[CyclistAbi]

@RedheadDane

You believe it's UCI and my claim is ASO. Feel free to ask someone you know with a bit of a law background and knowledge. That is if sport event organiser is responsible for the safety and if it's liable in the case it fails to implement agreed upon safety measurements. Resulting in (predictable) injuries and damages. Basically the end of stage 3. And if such sport event organiser have any grounds in shifting the responsibility to some "superior party".

Anyway lets for now just call it X. Why is it only the woman is made an example of and not the X? Woman took down the peloton with a cardboard and X took down the peloton with a piece of paper (end of stage 3). Why the double standards?

Will making this woman an example of reduce frequency of such incidents in the future? Would making X take the responsibility reduce the occurrence of incidents, such as seen at the end of stage 3? My take on it is making this woman an example of will help jack ***. Making X to take responsibility would in the long term reduce occurrences of incidents, such as seen at the end of the stage 3. As appropriate safety measurements would get agreed upon and implemented in future races.

Anyway in my opinion stage 1 and 3 where safety fiasco. We discussed a bit on what could be done. From salting the nails to education and separating the goats from the bulls. Now lets see if people in power will actually do something about it. Or if they will find another scapegoat in the next safety fiasco. Like blaming some fan from the side of the road again for all the problems. And obviously for the crowd to again have a say in it.

 

[fbjim]

I have no idea what on earth a court could find ASO "liable" for on stage 3. What are the riders going to say-yes, that stage was super dangerous, that's why we were all on the front pushing hard and smacking each other off the road in the bunch instead of taking it easy"?

 

[RedheadDane]

You believe it's UCI and my claim is ASO. Feel free to ask someone you know with a bit of a law background and knowledge. That is if sport event organiser is responsible for the safety and if it's liable in the case it fails to implement agreed upon safety measurements. Resulting in (predictable) injuries and damages. Basically the end of stage 3. And if such sport event organiser have any grounds in shifting the responsibility to some "superior party".

Because the superior party (no need for quotation marks, UCI is superior) overruled them.
You still haven't explained what exactly it is ASO should have done once the decision was made by the UCI to not neutralise the stage as suggested, and accepted by ASO.
Had a stage-long meeting with the verdict possibly only coming after the stage was done?
Just taking the times at 5 Ks to go anyway?

But anyway, yes. You're right! Of course it's not just individuals who should be held responsible for crashes. I just don't see the need to blame the organisation who'd actually accepted the suggestion made by the riders, but was overruled.

 

[Unchained]

Look at all sports,,anything golf, children 's football..both kinds.the handheld camera revolution has changed fan behavior,forever,negatively.and this years TDF field..some of the teams are fleshed up with riders that probably should not be there..the other thing that big teams would probably not accept..starting line announced time bonuses..I have been completely impressed with the race so far from the talent. But some of the lesser teams not getting any face time for individual riders or the sponsors is disappointing..unless Wanty circus has a secret weapon nobody knows about..or unless there is two races..the one were Cav is balls out..and the yellow jersey wearing rider should be tested to prove he is human..and then the other race were riders are looking for participation trophies..
The mountains are going to destroy conti level racers

 

[the delgados]

Just FYI: my washing bikes 'idea' was exactly that, tongue in cheek, silly talk. Even if that was a good idea, do you think that the mechanics would let her (or anyone else for that matter) near the team bikes?

I hope you didn't think that I was serious about rubbing salt in her hangnail either.

I'm sorry, jmdirt. I was almost certain you weren't serious but I was skimming over posts and wasn't paying attention to names. Sorry about that.
Mental note: Pay more attention before going off on mini-rants.

 

[jmdirt]

I have no idea what on earth a court could find ASO "liable" for on stage 3. What are the riders going to say-yes, that stage was super dangerous, that's why we were all on the front pushing hard and smacking each other off the road in the bunch instead of taking it easy"?

This is something that has been missing in this discussion this week. We have discussed it before on this forum though, that riders can make narrow/bumpy/potholed roads less dangerous by racing accordingly. That doesn't take any responsibility away from the governing bodies, promoters, or fans.

I'll preface that I am well aware that the Pro-Ams that I competed in are not the world tour and definitely not the TdF. That being said, there was a local circuit race here that had a long section of gravel, and if a large group entered it on the first lap there was an easing of the pace (I heard the horror stories about the cat 4/5 fields that didn't chill). I've done both Cascade and Willamette when road issues caused the field to ride slower over sections of road that had been compromised by bad weather. I also did it one year where the front guys from teams who had the cars to do it, switched to mountain bikes for the descent. I agree, who cares about the races that jmdirt did in the '90s!

EDIT: Horner won two of those though!