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PS. You're describing a very limited version of the ABP. Which didn't exist. Which had to be developed, and approved and made water tight so as to avoid false positives, etc.
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Re: Re:
Exactly why Horner's Vuelta win is so suspicious. It goes against the expected plasma expansion during a GT. Whilst not enough to ping the limits, it eyeballs as "almost certainly dropped a bag or two".
And I would be willing to say that under oath in a court of law.
Dear Wiggo said:
Exactly why Horner's Vuelta win is so suspicious. It goes against the expected plasma expansion during a GT. Whilst not enough to ping the limits, it eyeballs as "almost certainly dropped a bag or two".
And I would be willing to say that under oath in a court of law.
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Re: Re:
Yep, good post. But I would just like to let you know that I am already aware of the correct points that you have laid out.
I am sure you are more extensively read on the subject than I am. The Secret Race is a book which I have read as well as Breaking The Chain. An old favorite of mine is Rough Ride which was an account written mostly about Kimmages experiences. Of course the methods described in his book are pre-Epo era doping practices. And I have read quite a bit over the years about doping in newspaper, Internet articles, and have seen numerous documentaries on the subject. What I am describing is a sort of a basic anti-doping procedure. But like many, I am by no means an expert.
Dear Wiggo said:
Yep, good post. But I would just like to let you know that I am already aware of the correct points that you have laid out.
I am sure you are more extensively read on the subject than I am. The Secret Race is a book which I have read as well as Breaking The Chain. An old favorite of mine is Rough Ride which was an account written mostly about Kimmages experiences. Of course the methods described in his book are pre-Epo era doping practices. And I have read quite a bit over the years about doping in newspaper, Internet articles, and have seen numerous documentaries on the subject. What I am describing is a sort of a basic anti-doping procedure. But like many, I am by no means an expert.
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Long ago ended thread, but here could be a key to the alleged EPO-quote by Anna-Lisa Draaijer. Bicycling quotes her as saying the following in 1991 and specifically referring to mysterious deaths but not on EPO as the cause: ("Cycling's New Wonder Drug Can Kill You", Bicycling, Apr91, Vol. 32, Issue 3)
One could understand why the quote could be considered as an admission of widespread EPO use while it still isn't.
"Key" in what sense?
What do you think it points to?
Btw, this discussion was continued in the "1st epo users" thread. You find links there also to an academic article on the topic ( by an Italian author uirc). The tenor of the article is that the deaths are probably not attributable to epo, or that at least there is no convincing evidence to that extent.
What do you think it points to?
Btw, this discussion was continued in the "1st epo users" thread. You find links there also to an academic article on the topic ( by an Italian author uirc). The tenor of the article is that the deaths are probably not attributable to epo, or that at least there is no convincing evidence to that extent.
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I think that my contribution was very self-explanatory. A-L Draaijer referred to a suspicious cluster of deaths in Netherlands that bothered her and some read that as an admission of EPO use. I don't know if that exact quote was a reason for her alleged "admission" reporetd by Der Spiegel , but if her view was such, then she could've expressed similar views elsewhere.sniper said:
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The Bicycling-article (that I encountered in a digital database) is the only reference to the quote I've seen. The article doesn't mention for whom the interview was given, but as Paul Kimmage claims that she made her only interview to L'Equipe shortly after the death of her husband, that should be the source. I've seen also some second hand references to some remarks on Dutch TV, but I'm not sure whether they exist.fmk_RoI said:
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Totally possible scenarios... In contrary to what Kimmage wrote about her remaining silent on the issue after L'Équipe-article, just a precursory look into online Dutch newspapers reveal that this isn't the case, as she wrote an article himself on the case of her husband less than a year later:fmk_RoI said:
http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?query=anna-lisa+draaijer&coll=ddd&identifier=ddd%3A010624168%3Ampeg21%3Aa0509&resultsidentifier=ddd%3A010624168%3Ampeg21%3Aa0509
In another source there is a reference to a interview she granted to newspaper Krant op Zondag:
http://leiden.courant.nu/issue/LLC/1991-03-12/edition/0/page/7
While I can't locate the original interview, it could actually be the source of the Bicycling-quote as the interview took place roughly a month before the article that quoted her. If you drive the quote in the article through Google Translate, her ideas appear to be similar in melancholic tone as the Bicycling-quote:
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The danger of using too much erythropoietin is not a subject of serious debate, it's clear that dangerous thickening of the blood and other cardiovascular problems do occur.
As for specifically which professional cyclists died as a result, that is little-known, and in most cases can't be proven. It seems possible that the cause of death would not be publicized, because of the stigma of the impression that the deceased went out as cheaters.
As for specifically which professional cyclists died as a result, that is little-known, and in most cases can't be proven. It seems possible that the cause of death would not be publicized, because of the stigma of the impression that the deceased went out as cheaters.
Re:
There was a Spanish (not Italian as I said earlier) academic who wrote a piece downplaying the role of epo in the deaths of these cyclists in the late 80s/early 90s, viz. arguing there is no evidence that ties those deaths to EPO. While he made some good points, i think he also overstated some things.
It was brought up here:
viewtopic.php?p=1909832#p1909832
agreed on both accounts.ClassicomanoLuigi said:
There was a Spanish (not Italian as I said earlier) academic who wrote a piece downplaying the role of epo in the deaths of these cyclists in the late 80s/early 90s, viz. arguing there is no evidence that ties those deaths to EPO. While he made some good points, i think he also overstated some things.
It was brought up here:
viewtopic.php?p=1909832#p1909832
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Re: Re:
Just by going through this and other forums, it seems that the main problem with his article is his dismissal of the idea of amateurs using rEPO. In my opinion, people have too much mind the easy availabity of rEPO in mid-1990s when everyone could visit Switzerland and buy Eprex from a pharmacy on "de facto" over-the-counter basis. This option wasn't available in 1987-1988, as EPO was only not an OTC-product but not actual a product at all, and it would be unlikely for amateurs to have connections and resources to manage to get the substance.
If this is the case, it could be argued that perhaps the first two suspicious years could be dropped and from around 1989 onwards (ie. after the introduction of Eprex, Erypo-2000 etc.), the deaths could be attributable to EPO. But this revision brings up a logical problem, because the year 1987 was perhaps the worst year of these "sudden" deaths in Netherland with five cases. If the sole evidence of EPO-deaths is the amount of deaths/year and five could be a random coincidence, then almost every later could be also just a coincidence as well.
I don't know if anyone can debunk his main thesis, because I haven't seen any attempts to do so. For López to conclude that only a handful of the deaths of the infamous "15-18 EPO-victims" were reported in the media is a sound notion, and in my opinion a definite proof that - unlike usually reported - there weren't "famous" and "young" "pros" or "top amateurs" dropping dead in Netherlands almost every second month in late 1980s. But for López to calculate death rates ("an average of 1.25 sudden deaths per year per country in Holland and Belgium...) from the handful of names he manages to find from newspaper archives is just nonsense, because it leaves the impression that there weren't some 15 deaths in Netherlands in years 1987-1990.
I use the word "nonsense", because there were these 15 more-or-less sudden deaths, and this is pretty clear, because the established causes of the deaths of these people were reported by the media already in 1990:
The article by López has its strengths and weaknesses and some parts of it are more compelling than others. Here some unorganized thoughts.sniper said:
Just by going through this and other forums, it seems that the main problem with his article is his dismissal of the idea of amateurs using rEPO. In my opinion, people have too much mind the easy availabity of rEPO in mid-1990s when everyone could visit Switzerland and buy Eprex from a pharmacy on "de facto" over-the-counter basis. This option wasn't available in 1987-1988, as EPO was only not an OTC-product but not actual a product at all, and it would be unlikely for amateurs to have connections and resources to manage to get the substance.
If this is the case, it could be argued that perhaps the first two suspicious years could be dropped and from around 1989 onwards (ie. after the introduction of Eprex, Erypo-2000 etc.), the deaths could be attributable to EPO. But this revision brings up a logical problem, because the year 1987 was perhaps the worst year of these "sudden" deaths in Netherland with five cases. If the sole evidence of EPO-deaths is the amount of deaths/year and five could be a random coincidence, then almost every later could be also just a coincidence as well.
I don't know if anyone can debunk his main thesis, because I haven't seen any attempts to do so. For López to conclude that only a handful of the deaths of the infamous "15-18 EPO-victims" were reported in the media is a sound notion, and in my opinion a definite proof that - unlike usually reported - there weren't "famous" and "young" "pros" or "top amateurs" dropping dead in Netherlands almost every second month in late 1980s. But for López to calculate death rates ("an average of 1.25 sudden deaths per year per country in Holland and Belgium...) from the handful of names he manages to find from newspaper archives is just nonsense, because it leaves the impression that there weren't some 15 deaths in Netherlands in years 1987-1990.
I use the word "nonsense", because there were these 15 more-or-less sudden deaths, and this is pretty clear, because the established causes of the deaths of these people were reported by the media already in 1990:
While the admission weakens his main thesis, it is strange that López accepts without a second thought the claim made by "several sources" that EPO began circulating in Europe in 1987. The few sources he actually cites are claiming that EPO caused all the deaths and it is indeed my reading of the literature that the whole claim about EPO-availability as early as 1987 is based on the EPO-killed-them hypothesis and on nothing more.L.A. Times said:
Some well argued points there Aragon.
I remember there being some evidence (other than those deaths, obviously) of epo 'arriving' in the Netherlands in 1987, but I would have to look for it.
There are a few pieces of evidence of epo being used in endurance sports as early as 1988. Some of the evidence relates to cycling, I believe. That includes Winnen's comments.
If you want I'll dig it up.
I remember there being some evidence (other than those deaths, obviously) of epo 'arriving' in the Netherlands in 1987, but I would have to look for it.
There are a few pieces of evidence of epo being used in endurance sports as early as 1988. Some of the evidence relates to cycling, I believe. That includes Winnen's comments.
If you want I'll dig it up.
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Re:
If you have some information, I'd appreciate if you'd link to the material. I'm vaguely familiar about Peter Winnen been told by Italians about "mountain altitude"-drugs around 1988-1989. On the other hand, when the issue of rEPO was first brought into light during the 1988 Winter Olympics, it must've started a lot of very unreliable gossip everywhere. If rEPO was really available in Netherlands as early as 1987, it is a mystery why one of the (allegedly) most doping-innovative teams (PDM) used transfusions in 1988.sniper said:
yes, many rumors/gossip indeed, but very little concrete evidence.
Put differently: much smoke, but no real fire.
Still, if there is such a thing as "the sum of all evidence", then based on that sum, I think it is at least a distinct possibility that some endurance athletes were trying EPO already in 1988.
Some thoughts:
You linked to this yourself earlier.
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-02/sports/sp-143_1_performance-enhancing-drug
Some of the comments from doctors in there (including Pluijmers and Ekblom) suggest that EPO was already in use by the time the article was written (1990). So, FWIW, judging merely by those comments, 1988 certainly doesn't seem out of reach for first EPO usage.
as you probably know, FIS banned EPO in 1988.
https://books.google.pl/books?id=ESFWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=fis+bans+epo+1988&source=bl&ots=lLEOAIvs42&sig=Crlw8jrhIWKpPm0TLdTy0-ezmyU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijyMGJgYzPAhWQKCwKHbYIAGIQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=fis%20bans%20epo%201988&f=false
This is no proof of anything, of course, but it is at least suggestive that EPO was around in 1988 and available to athletes with a budget. I wonder did FIS ever publish a press release about that decision?
In this interview from the TdF 1988 (http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010611731%3Ampeg21%3Aa0264&coll=ddd), Yvan Van Mol (ADR doc) explains how he takes care of his riders. After each stage he:
- measures pulse and blood pressure
- gives the riders "the necessary preparates including injections and infusions"
- vitamin B (B1, B2, B6 and B12) and C (doesn't say whether as injections or as pills)
But that's only the basics. We're two weeks into this TdF and Van Mol explains he had his riders blood tested twice already, in two cases discovering iron deficiency which he says could have led to anemia. In addition, and perhaps most interestingly, he gives the riders what he calls "Italian energy-releasing products".
Any idea what he's referring to there?
Now, I mentioned the "first EPO users" thread a couple of times already.
I went through that thread once, and found posts about the following:
- In an opinion piece, Peter Winnen recalls rumors and performances that made him suspicious of EPO being used in 1988
- a female American cyclist accuses Jeannie Longo of starting EPO in 1988
- Both in Calgary (Canada) and in Ferrara (Italy) EPO is said to have been tested on athletes in 1988.
- Colin Sturgess, former pro, recalls the year 1990, saying that EPO had been around "for ages", but that only in 1990 it was becoming affordable;
- Les Earnest wrote a letter to USOC warning them about EPO in 1988.
- several other medical experts, athletes, officials, and others are on the record mirroring rumors that the product was already in use in 1988 (and possibly earlier) among cyclists, Nordic skiers and other endurance athletes.
If one of these points interests you in particular, let me know and I'll be happy to dig for links that expand on them.
You'll also like this post:
viewtopic.php?p=1056236#p1056236
Put differently: much smoke, but no real fire.
Still, if there is such a thing as "the sum of all evidence", then based on that sum, I think it is at least a distinct possibility that some endurance athletes were trying EPO already in 1988.
Some thoughts:
You linked to this yourself earlier.
http://articles.latimes.com/1990-06-02/sports/sp-143_1_performance-enhancing-drug
Some of the comments from doctors in there (including Pluijmers and Ekblom) suggest that EPO was already in use by the time the article was written (1990). So, FWIW, judging merely by those comments, 1988 certainly doesn't seem out of reach for first EPO usage.
as you probably know, FIS banned EPO in 1988.
https://books.google.pl/books?id=ESFWBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=fis+bans+epo+1988&source=bl&ots=lLEOAIvs42&sig=Crlw8jrhIWKpPm0TLdTy0-ezmyU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijyMGJgYzPAhWQKCwKHbYIAGIQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=fis%20bans%20epo%201988&f=false
This is no proof of anything, of course, but it is at least suggestive that EPO was around in 1988 and available to athletes with a budget. I wonder did FIS ever publish a press release about that decision?
In this interview from the TdF 1988 (http://www.delpher.nl/nl/kranten/view?identifier=ddd%3A010611731%3Ampeg21%3Aa0264&coll=ddd), Yvan Van Mol (ADR doc) explains how he takes care of his riders. After each stage he:
- measures pulse and blood pressure
- gives the riders "the necessary preparates including injections and infusions"
- vitamin B (B1, B2, B6 and B12) and C (doesn't say whether as injections or as pills)
But that's only the basics. We're two weeks into this TdF and Van Mol explains he had his riders blood tested twice already, in two cases discovering iron deficiency which he says could have led to anemia. In addition, and perhaps most interestingly, he gives the riders what he calls "Italian energy-releasing products".
Any idea what he's referring to there?
Now, I mentioned the "first EPO users" thread a couple of times already.
I went through that thread once, and found posts about the following:
- In an opinion piece, Peter Winnen recalls rumors and performances that made him suspicious of EPO being used in 1988
- a female American cyclist accuses Jeannie Longo of starting EPO in 1988
- Both in Calgary (Canada) and in Ferrara (Italy) EPO is said to have been tested on athletes in 1988.
- Colin Sturgess, former pro, recalls the year 1990, saying that EPO had been around "for ages", but that only in 1990 it was becoming affordable;
- Les Earnest wrote a letter to USOC warning them about EPO in 1988.
- several other medical experts, athletes, officials, and others are on the record mirroring rumors that the product was already in use in 1988 (and possibly earlier) among cyclists, Nordic skiers and other endurance athletes.
If one of these points interests you in particular, let me know and I'll be happy to dig for links that expand on them.
You'll also like this post:
viewtopic.php?p=1056236#p1056236
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Re:
I'll take a closer look on the claims in the future, but here a skeptical look on the matter:
- Dr. Björn Ekblom doesn't claim to the L.A. Times that rEPO-use was already prevalent, but hinted that it was a problem of near future. In fact, he was specifically skeptical about the alleged link between the Dutch deaths and rEPO use and tells he hasn't heard anything proving such a thing.
- If you actually read the whole sentence about the "Italian energy-releasing products", it is very clear that the substance is some kind of glycogen gel than anything else ("because they are incorporated fastest into body").
- It is very apparent that the FIS-decision to ban EPO in 1988 was based on the negative publicity surrounding the product, and because it was foreseeable that the substance would be use by the sports community in the future and it was easiest to ban the substance immediately.
I'll take a closer look on the claims in the future, but here a skeptical look on the matter:
- Dr. Björn Ekblom doesn't claim to the L.A. Times that rEPO-use was already prevalent, but hinted that it was a problem of near future. In fact, he was specifically skeptical about the alleged link between the Dutch deaths and rEPO use and tells he hasn't heard anything proving such a thing.
(one could debate about his claim of "small side effects" of rEPO, but that is another story)Dagens Nyheter said:
- If you actually read the whole sentence about the "Italian energy-releasing products", it is very clear that the substance is some kind of glycogen gel than anything else ("because they are incorporated fastest into body").
- It is very apparent that the FIS-decision to ban EPO in 1988 was based on the negative publicity surrounding the product, and because it was foreseeable that the substance would be use by the sports community in the future and it was easiest to ban the substance immediately.
Some very cogent points, conceded.
Your recent postings make abundantly clear how valuable it can be to go to the primary source.
I'm still curious about Van Mol diagnosing his riders with anemia (cf. Lemond 1989).
Note about Van Mol that he is mentioned in the Donati report in the context of the death of a Polish amateur in 1994(?) and EPO.
Your recent postings make abundantly clear how valuable it can be to go to the primary source.
I'm still curious about Van Mol diagnosing his riders with anemia (cf. Lemond 1989).
Note about Van Mol that he is mentioned in the Donati report in the context of the death of a Polish amateur in 1994(?) and EPO.
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Re:
There was erythropoietin-research in the University of Ferrara published in 1988 and it is an interesting story, particularly when we pretty much know that Francesco Conconi used rEPO donated to him by the IOC in the next decade in a questionable manner. Here is the actual title with other relevant information on the smoking gun working paper:
SERUM ERYTHROPOIETIN IN CROSS-COUNTRY SKIERS
De Paoli Vitali E1, Guglielmini C, Casoni I, Vedovato M, Gilli P, Farinelli A, Salvatorelli G, Conconi F., Int J Sports Med. 1988 Apr;9(2):99-101.
There you have it! EPO and two known blood dopers (Ilario Casoni & Francesco Conconi) associated with athletes as early as 1988!!!
But the article has nothing to do with rEPO, absolutely nothing, but the rationale was to measure natural erythropoietin levels of cross country skiers and to focus on natural fluctuations. My impression is that one reason why the study was conducted was because the algorithm to detect autotransfusion was based on the correlation between hemoglobin and EPO - levels, and was actually a study with identical title by blood doping researchers Bo Berglund and Peter Hemmingson also in 1988.
If the Canadian study referred here is the EPO-research performed in the Foothills hospital referred in the article in the Dutch newspaper Limburgsch dagblad (2/18/1988), the research wasn't performed on athletes but on kidney patients, as is mentioned clearly in the article.sniper said:
There was erythropoietin-research in the University of Ferrara published in 1988 and it is an interesting story, particularly when we pretty much know that Francesco Conconi used rEPO donated to him by the IOC in the next decade in a questionable manner. Here is the actual title with other relevant information on the smoking gun working paper:
SERUM ERYTHROPOIETIN IN CROSS-COUNTRY SKIERS
De Paoli Vitali E1, Guglielmini C, Casoni I, Vedovato M, Gilli P, Farinelli A, Salvatorelli G, Conconi F., Int J Sports Med. 1988 Apr;9(2):99-101.
There you have it! EPO and two known blood dopers (Ilario Casoni & Francesco Conconi) associated with athletes as early as 1988!!!
But the article has nothing to do with rEPO, absolutely nothing, but the rationale was to measure natural erythropoietin levels of cross country skiers and to focus on natural fluctuations. My impression is that one reason why the study was conducted was because the algorithm to detect autotransfusion was based on the correlation between hemoglobin and EPO - levels, and was actually a study with identical title by blood doping researchers Bo Berglund and Peter Hemmingson also in 1988.
yikes.
kudos, Aragon.
Seems people including yours truly jumped the gun on that Ferrara study too quickly.
kudos, Aragon.
Seems people including yours truly jumped the gun on that Ferrara study too quickly.
As for Calgary, indeed the research wasn't done on athletes (my bad), but from the Dutch newspaper article I do gather that the study was aimed at studying the 'stimulating effects' of EPO, and that it does look at EPO from a performance angle. If you have access to the original Foothill study, maybe you can confirm or discard this?
Btw, in that second newspaper article (from the newspaper Amigoe) in that post from Lanark, it says that "during the Calgary Olympics the Canadian ski coach Marty Hall accused Russian athletes [Nordic skiers I assume] of using EPO".
Here's a good post on Calgary, EPO, and possible Dutch involvement:
viewtopic.php?p=852217#p852217
Cloxxki is a highly reliable poster, meaning he's not making that stuff up.
Still, of course, this is merely in the domain of rumors/gossip.
I do agree 100% with the sentence closing out that post.
Also, I believe there is some rumor/evidence/gossip linking Eindhoven to possible early EPO use, which might warrant scrutinizing performances such as PSV winning the 1988 Europacup and some other dodgy Dutch performances in that period against that background.
Btw, in that second newspaper article (from the newspaper Amigoe) in that post from Lanark, it says that "during the Calgary Olympics the Canadian ski coach Marty Hall accused Russian athletes [Nordic skiers I assume] of using EPO".
Here's a good post on Calgary, EPO, and possible Dutch involvement:
viewtopic.php?p=852217#p852217
Cloxxki is a highly reliable poster, meaning he's not making that stuff up.
Still, of course, this is merely in the domain of rumors/gossip.
I do agree 100% with the sentence closing out that post.
Also, I believe there is some rumor/evidence/gossip linking Eindhoven to possible early EPO use, which might warrant scrutinizing performances such as PSV winning the 1988 Europacup and some other dodgy Dutch performances in that period against that background.
Re:
If you look at p. 69 of the document linked below, you see that the Dutch Organon company (the company mentioned in the post linked above) applied for an EPO licensing application in the late 80s, but it was suspended (= rejected?).
https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk2/1990/9038/903805.PDF
If you look at p. 69 of the document linked below, you see that the Dutch Organon company (the company mentioned in the post linked above) applied for an EPO licensing application in the late 80s, but it was suspended (= rejected?).
https://www.princeton.edu/~ota/disk2/1990/9038/903805.PDF
Could anyone give me an idea on the dosage of EPO for legitimate medical purposes as opposed to how much cyclists were taking in the late 90s (ie not Riis levels)
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